Touch Control Issue (thoughts please)

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Bill V in Md
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Re: Touch Control Issue (thoughts please)

Postby Bill V in Md » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:40 am

I wonder whether your multi-grade motor oil is detergent or non-detergent? If it is detergent oil, it will have foaming qualities that can cause problems in a hydraulic application.
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Gary S.
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Re: Touch Control Issue (thoughts please)

Postby Gary S. » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:14 am

I thought back in the day straight 10w was recommended anyway. Wonder if the multi viscosity was the problem and Hy Tran the cure

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Re: Touch Control Issue (thoughts please)

Postby Stanton » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:11 am

According to the Owner Manuals in our library, the '49 Manual references 10W oil and the following year (and thereafter) references "IH Touch Control fluid". Looks like since 1950, IH recommended using Hy-Tran fluid.
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Re: Touch Control Issue (thoughts please)

Postby MiCarl » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:49 am

Guys, I'm pretty confident the fluid isn't the issue. As Gary S. and Stanton pointed out IH initially called for 10W in the touch control. I understand that when IH got into the fluids business they wanted to specify their own fluid. I used the 10W30 because I had it on hand and didn't want to blow a bunch of time and money for the first use of an unknown system. It's worked just fine, hot and cold, until now.

The service manual specifies a low pressure situation (assuming fluid and no air in system) is either the pump or one of the valves in the Touch Control block. I'm disinclined to pull apart a fairly freshly rebuilt pump as I cannot see any way for a sudden, partial failure without leaks.

On the other hand I think I may have just pushed a large pile of snow before it acted up. I'm thinking the safety valve might have popped and failed to close.

While the pump is a lot easier to get to and do I'm inclined to tackle the block since I don't know when or if it's ever been done.

So what I'm interested in is thoughts on whether to go straight to the block or peek in the pump first.
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Re: Touch Control Issue (thoughts please)

Postby Shane N. » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:54 am

If you may have to go into the block, you'll have to drain the fluid anyway. Since you have to drain the fluid anyway to look at the pump, I'd pull the pump first and look at it to make sure it isn't your problem then if it's fine you already have the fluid drained and can tackle the block.
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Re: Touch Control Issue (thoughts please)

Postby MiCarl » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:45 pm

Shane Nelson wrote:If you may have to go into the block, you'll have to drain the fluid anyway. Since you have to drain the fluid anyway to look at the pump, I'd pull the pump first and look at it to make sure it isn't your problem then if it's fine you already have the fluid drained and can tackle the block.


I think you're right. Looking at the parts diagrams it appears the pump body halves are sealed with an o-ring which I should be able to reuse. I'm going to have to pull the pump off anyhow because I'll need to move the tractor and don't want to run a dry pump.

The block off plate is in the attic of the shed which requires an outdoor ladder. As soon as I get hard ground and no snow I'll tackle it.
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Re: Touch Control Issue (thoughts please)

Postby Jim Becker » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:15 pm

Any multi-weight motor oil has detergent. Detergent causes foaming in the hydraulic system. Hy-Tran has multiple performance differences compared to motor oil. Foaming is just one of them. Use the right oil!

You should check the orifice and orifice screen in the Touch-Control block for blockage. Flow through it is part of what regulates pressure in the system. It is accessible by removing a pipe plug in the Touch-Control head. You need to get the rear tank support out of the way to reach it.

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Re: Touch Control Issue (thoughts please)

Postby outdoors4evr » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:15 pm

Dumb question: could this just be a frozen chunk of ice in one of the valves? I wonder if the issue goes away when the tractor is warmed above freezing. Saturday was well below zero temps.
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Re: Touch Control Issue (thoughts please)

Postby MiCarl » Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:16 pm

outdoors4evr wrote:Dumb question: could this just be a frozen chunk of ice in one of the valves? I wonder if the issue goes away when the tractor is warmed above freezing. Saturday was well below zero temps.


I don't think that's the problem. Everything was pretty warm in the garage yesterday. Would have expected ice to give up.

It won't surprise me though if an old o-ring failed in the cold temperature and a piece ended up in the valve.
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Re: Touch Control Issue (thoughts please)

Postby John *.?-!.* cub owner » Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:58 pm

In addition to what Jim posted above, allk multigrade oils contain detergents. Many of the o-rings and other soft parts used in older equipment did not stand up wellk to the detergents in oil, which is the reason for specifying 10 wt oil. Note, an HD designation is High Detergent, not Heavy Duty.
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MiCarl
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Re: Touch Control Issue (thoughts please)

Postby MiCarl » Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:40 am

So I started to tear the system apart.

The pump looked fine although the bearings stayed with opposite halves and destroyed the bearing pin seal. That piece had the consistency of chewing gum. Fortunately I had an o-ring with the right cross section and was able to cut a replacement. For the life of me I cannot figure out what that thing does.

On to the cylinder block:

I must say the service manual leaves a lot to be desired, at least for my 351 981 R1 block.

The control valve had been obviously leaking a bit, there was oil in the boot.

There was a pile of debris inside the bottom cover, similar to what would be expected in the pan of an automatic transmission. There was also debris on the strainer.
IMG_20190128_140432315.jpg


Further disassembly showed some damage to pressure regulator valve piston. The end that presses against the ball in the check valve had mushroomed to one side.
IMG_20190128_142809882_HDR.jpg

IMG_20190128_160135960_HDR.jpg


The piston itself had wear on one side toward the front and the opposite side toward the rear.
IMG_20190128_160226598.jpg


I'm thinking the wear on the end was cocking the piston in its bore and it may have stuck in the low pressure position, particularly if a speck of dirt got in there. As I recall it was in the high pressure position (normal without any hydraulic pressure) when I disassembled the block. Perhaps it shook loose in the truck on the ride from home to the shop........

I need to make a tool to remove the check valve the piston actuates just to make sure there isn't something in there causing too much force back against the piston.

Of course the piston is discontinued so I'm inclined to attempt a repair on this one. From the drawings in the service manual and pictures I found on line it appears the end should have a divot to keep it centered on the check valve ball. I'm inclined to put a spot of weld on the end, true it up, and grind a divot for the ball. Any thoughts?
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MiCarl
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Re: Touch Control Issue (thoughts please)

Postby MiCarl » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:19 pm

Touch control is back on the tractor.

Repair seems to have worked so far.
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