Final Drive - What to do next?

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WildFarmall
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Final Drive - What to do next?

Postby WildFarmall » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:40 am

Well - I am not quiet over my head but I sure am bobbing around a lot! What started out as a simple cleanup, tune up, and paint touch up, has now evolved (devolved?) into my 1949 Farmall Cub almost completely apart (except for the engine proper). I have found and corrected problems moving from the front of the engine and working my way towards the back.
So now I am looking at the Final Drive Housings and wondering what to do next and, to be quite frank, hoping I will not get over my head. I have gone over my IH Service manual but would like any advice as what to do. Here are my questions:
1. I heard a little scraping noise when I turned the right wheel but it seemed to go away when I released the brake control rods.
2. I removed both housing pans and noticed that the right side was low maybe 1 - 2" inches below the fill plug. The right side gear oil was black but not as thick and black as I was fearing. The left side was closer to the fill plug and much lighter and reddish in tint. It is hard for me too tell where oil leaks have been but I think there were definite leaks around the seals on the right side.
3. While I am at this stage what would you recommend I do? How difficult a job is this.
4. If I take the Final Drives off each side how do you recommend that deal with them. I do not have a hoist (yet) and because I did not think ahead I do not have an easy way to hoist from my barn ceiling. I am strong and did managed to jury rig a way to get the wheel weights off. Any suggestions? I assume that the Final Housings are heavier and obviously more critical.
5.Are special tools needed to do this job? For instance to remove the main drive gear, to remove and press on bearings? I assume that preloading bearings means the retaining nut is tightened until there is 10-20 lbs torque when the wheel is turned. Can this be done by feel?
6. I bought gear oil 80-70 weight from Tractor Supply is this good oil or do I need Hy Tran fluid? Thanks all!

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Re: Final Drive - What to do next?

Postby Dale Finch » Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:11 pm

1. The scraping noise is probably the brake band assembly, since the noise went away with disconnecting the rod. Could be several things: rusty band/drum, worn out brake lining, etc. First, do you know if the brakes worked? Next, you can look into the final housing where the brake rod exits, and see if the band is still centered over the brake drum. The brake drum can migrate, if the set screw comes loose or breaks. There is also the same hole on the back side of the housing through which it is probably easier to see the brake band.

2. You are actually lucky there was ANY oil in the final pans! Since many tractors are used with mowers and cultivators that are attached to the finals, those filler holes are often blocked, so seldom checked!

3,4. To remove the finals there are a couple HOW TO's. Here is one:
http://farmallcub.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=142&t=78436

I think it might be doable without a hoist, but is certainly easier with one.
https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200640933_200640933?cm_mmc=Bing-pla&utm_source=Bing_PLA&utm_medium=Automotive%20%3E%20Engine%20Hoists%20%2B%20Stands%20%3E%20Engine%20Hoists&utm_campaign=Ironton&utm_content=46218&msclkid=020743706fea1e60a5bd1f2771af85c5

I am female, and I CAN wrestle a final around, but it is pretty darn heavy for me. A floor engine hoist and/or a friend :{_}: to help, would be my recommendation. Also, in that HOW TO, it doesn't mention it, but you should replace the differential seal, as well as the upper seal in the final, while you have it off.

DON'T FORGET TO BLOCK THE FRONT AXLE, anytime you remove a rear wheel or final!!

5. A hydraulic press makes it easier to remove the axle, if you decide to change the outer seal, which is often leaking.
https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200641794_200641794

Maybe you know someone who has one?

6. In my opinion (not worth much usually!!) that gear oil would work fine. I happen to use a heavier one, but others will come along with lots of advice! :lol:

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Re: Final Drive - What to do next?

Postby SONNY » Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:11 pm

I use 140 in mine, but others say that's too heavy. In winter it may be too much, but mine don't run in winter so it works for me. I would say what you have is fine for year around use. thanks; sonny

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Re: Final Drive - What to do next?

Postby Glen » Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:25 pm

Hi,
Below is a post I wrote in, showing how to replace the oil seals on the final drive upper shafts, that the brakes are on. There are 4 oil seals on the upper shafts, 2 on the left side, and 2 on the right side of the tractor.
After reading Dale's post, you will probably understand the final drives better.
There is an oil seal behind the brake drum, in the final drive housing that should be replaced also, if they have not been replaced recently.
Buying new brake bands with lining is easier than replacing the lining. TM Tractor has new bands, if you want to buy them.
My post is part way down the page.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=103038&p=815640

80W-90 gear oil is made nowadays, and used for the transmission and final drives on the older Cubs.
The 1949 Cub owner's manual says to use 90 weight gear oil.
You wrote 80-70 above, I guess you meant 80-90.

Below is the 1949 Cub owner's manual, if you don't have it. It has lots of info about operation, maintenance, and lubrication. There is a table of contents on page 1.
The lubrication section begins on page 14.
Lubricant info is on page 17. It was made before multi weight oils were made, I think. Newer Cub owner's manuals have info with multi weight oils. :)

http://farmallcub.com/rudi_cub/www.clea ... index.html

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Re: Final Drive - What to do next?

Postby WildFarmall » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:29 am

Dale Finch wrote:1. The scraping noise is probably the brake band assembly, since the noise went away with disconnecting the rod. Could be several things: rusty band/drum, worn out brake lining, etc. First, do you know if the brakes worked? Next, you can look into the final housing where the brake rod exits, and see if the band is still centered over the brake drum. The brake drum can migrate, if the set screw comes loose or breaks. There is also the same hole on the back side of the housing through which it is probably easier to see the brake band.

2. You are actually lucky there was ANY oil in the final pans! Since many tractors are used with mowers and cultivators that are attached to the finals, those filler holes are often blocked, so seldom checked!

3,4. To remove the finals there are a couple HOW TO's. Here is one:
http://farmallcub.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=142&t=78436

I think it might be doable without a hoist, but is certainly easier with one.
https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200640933_200640933?cm_mmc=Bing-pla&utm_source=Bing_PLA&utm_medium=Automotive%20%3E%20Engine%20Hoists%20%2B%20Stands%20%3E%20Engine%20Hoists&utm_campaign=Ironton&utm_content=46218&msclkid=020743706fea1e60a5bd1f2771af85c5

I am female, and I CAN wrestle a final around, but it is pretty darn heavy for me. A floor engine hoist and/or a friend :{_}: to help, would be my recommendation. Also, in that HOW TO, it doesn't mention it, but you should replace the differential seal, as well as the upper seal in the final, while you have it off.

DON'T FORGET TO BLOCK THE FRONT AXLE, anytime you remove a rear wheel or final!!

5. A hydraulic press makes it easier to remove the axle, if you decide to change the outer seal, which is often leaking.
https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200641794_200641794

Maybe you know someone who has one?

6. In my opinion (not worth much usually!!) that gear oil would work fine. I happen to use a heavier one, but others will come along with lots of advice! :lol:

Thanks so much Dale - I am studying your comments and posts . They are really helpful.
1. I have figured out how to adapt my mower lift to support the Final Drives when I take them off.
2. Do I need a hydraulic press to get the axle out or can something be adapted?
3. I was planning on looking at where the obvious leaks were and repalacing those seals but it appears that I will need a press?
4. I have secured my tractor but plan to do more just to be safe!

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Re: Final Drive - What to do next?

Postby WildFarmall » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:35 am

Glen wrote:Hi,
Below is a post I wrote in, showing how to replace the oil seals on the final drive upper shafts, that the brakes are on. There are 4 oil seals on the upper shafts, 2 on the left side, and 2 on the right side of the tractor.
After reading Dale's post, you will probably understand the final drives better.
There is an oil seal behind the brake drum, in the final drive housing that should be replaced also, if they have not been replaced recently.
Buying new brake bands with lining is easier than replacing the lining. TM Tractor has new bands, if you want to buy them.
My post is part way down the page.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=103038&p=815640

80W-90 gear oil is made nowadays, and used for the transmission and final drives on the older Cubs.
The 1949 Cub owner's manual says to use 90 weight gear oil.
You wrote 80-70 above, I guess you meant 80-90.

Below is the 1949 Cub owner's manual, if you don't have it. It has lots of info about operation, maintenance, and lubrication. There is a table of contents on page 1.
The lubrication section begins on page 14.
Lubricant info is on page 17. It was made before multi weight oils were made, I think. Newer Cub owner's manuals have info with multi weight oils. :)

http://farmallcub.com/rudi_cub/www.clea ... index.html

Thanks Glen - very helpful information. I need to study this more as I sometimes have a hard time visualizing things. Thanks so much!

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Re: Final Drive - What to do next?

Postby rockfarmer » Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:56 am

You can replace all seals and bearings w/o a press if you have a bearing puller (can be rented from auto parts store for free) and some type of seal or race installer like this (which can probably be rented as well)
bearing puller.jpg


I purchased both on amazon once my addiction kicked in. Is it the best way? probably not, but when you have to improvise due to budget reasons or simply don't have access to a press, it will work. I have rebuilt 6 finals using these tools only in addition to a hardwood block and a 3 lb sledge hammer. Removing the races and installing the inner bearing w/o a press is the toughest part of the job, IMO. I'm sure others have done it easier than I but you can do it all yourself with patience. Good luck.

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Re: Final Drive - What to do next?

Postby Dale Finch » Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:06 am

:Dito: Good luck! :D

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Re: Final Drive - What to do next?

Postby WildFarmall » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:26 am

Finally getting back to the Final Drives. Yesterday I removed the left drive from the tractor and have a few questions.
1. In my hurry to get started I failed to remember to take the drain plug out of the bottom of the central gear casing so when I removed the left final drive I had a lot of oil come out. In any case I funneled off as much as I could and then moved my oil collection pan under the tractor and removed the plug. I noticed the oil that came out was a grey color which surprised me. Did someone before me put in the wrong oil or did I a long time ago? Is this normal? Any suggestions?
2. The top picture show a mud dauber nest in the drive! I am sure that this was not a first but anyone else seen this?
3. The oil seal looks ok but should I replace it anyway?
4. I think the brake pads look ok also but what do you think?

MM Cub Final Drive 1.jpg
MM Cub Final Drive2.jpg
MM Cub Final Drive 3.jpg
MM Cub Final Drive 4.jpg

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Re: Final Drive - What to do next?

Postby tst » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:30 am

the oil is that color because of water intrusion,change the oil

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Re: Final Drive - What to do next?

Postby Bob McCarty » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:51 am

It's easy to change the seals now, I'd do it. The brake lining looks fine, but if that is grease/oil on it, you might want to burn that off with a torch before reinstalling.
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Re: Final Drive - What to do next?

Postby Eugene » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:58 am

Mud dauber's nest. Yup, they will get in anything with an opening.

I would replace the seal.

Brake band looks fine. Not sure why it doesn't show much wear for it's age. I would spray the brake drum and band with brake cleaner. Check the articulated joint at the front of the band to make sure it's not frozen up.

Ready to post and I see Bob said pretty much the same thing.
I have an excuse. CRS.

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Re: Final Drive - What to do next?

Postby WildFarmall » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:55 pm

Brake Pin Chipout.jpg
Brake Pin Chipout 3.jpg
Brake Pin Chipout 2.jpg


Thanks everyone and now another problem! So when I pulled the brake drum off I noticed that the hole where the brake pin fits into was chipped out. See pictures below. When I opened up the left final drive I wiggled the brake shoe and pin out without first taking the drum off. I did not force anything or break anything. It was only after I had taken the drum off and differential shaft off and started cleaning the upper end did I notice the pin chip out. It must have been done some time ago. I measured how much seat there is and it appears to be about 3/32" as best as I can measure it. In any case now I do not know what to do. My questions are:
1. Do you think it will work just the way it is?
2. Can it be repaired by a machine shop? The shop I have gone to charges a minimum of $85 an hour. Do you thing a weld, done properly would hold?
Also:
3. The brake shoe that I have does not have an actuating toggle. It is simply one piece that pulls against the pin with the brake rod permanently attached. Did someone install the wrong part?
4. My bearing cap bolts did not have lock washers - should I put lock washers on when I put it back on? Also there was no gasket only some type of blue gasket sealer.
5. Finally the joint where the final drive attaches to the tractor also did not have a gasket - should there be one?
Thanks so much everyone.

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Re: Final Drive - What to do next?

Postby Glen » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:23 pm

Hi,
The transmission was too full of oil, or water mixed in with the oil, is why it would run out the seal hole, if the tractor is on a level surface.
Ahead, or to the left in the pic, of where the final drive fastens on is the oil level plug, remove it and fill the trans to there with 80W-90 gear oil.
You said you drained the trans, the drain plug is on the bottom of the trans, visible from under the platform.

It's better to replace the seals while you have the final drive off. There is a seal behind the brake drum, in the final drive also, I wrote about it above. If any of them leak, oil will probably get on the brake lining.
You can use solvent to wash the oil off the brake lining too, use plenty, to get down into the lining. Air will help dry it after you clean it. Use your safety glasses when using the air.


It looks like someone did not have the pin started in the holes when they tightened the bolts holding the final drive onto the trans.
Always look closely and be sure the brake pin is in the holes at both ends, before tightening the 6 bolts.
I think it might work the way it is, the brake rod pulls ahead on the pin when you push the brake pedals.
Too bad it is broken.
The older style brake band and rod, like you have, is the only style that will work with that style of final drive, it is the older style final drive. The newer style final drive has a bigger hole for the newer style brake parts.
A 1949 Cub had the style of brake that is in your pics. IH changed to the newer style brake in 1953.

If you mean the cap on the final drive, with the 4 bolts, they don't use lock washers there, I think.

It looks like an original style of oil seal in the final drive, in your pic, I would replace it.
There is no gasket where the final drives attach to the trans, on either side.

Below are pics from TM Tractor of the 2 styles of final drives, and brakes. :)

http://www.tmtractor.com/tm-tractor/gfi ... vecomp.htm

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Re: Final Drive - What to do next?

Postby Dale Finch » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:18 pm

These are the gaskets for the finals from TM Tractors, but you can also make them yourself fairly easily:
http://www.tmtractor.com/new/fr/572fp.htm
d277s.jpg


They also have the seals, but most seals are available from NAPA as well.

The transmission was definitely overfull if fluid came out when you removed the final. So, you do need to drain the transmission and when you refill it, it only uses 3 1/2 PINTS. As mentioned by Glen, remove the Level Plug on the lower left side of the transmission housing, and when gear oil comes out, you are full.


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