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help needed diagnosing tranny/rear end noise.

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timmccormack
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help needed diagnosing tranny/rear end noise.

Postby timmccormack » Sun Feb 12, 2006 3:38 pm

Hi:

My son (8 years old) has just about convinced me to keep my old farmall cub and make it a father/son project.

The main problem I see with the tractor other that being pretty ugly paint wise, is that there is a terrible racket coming from the rear end when I drive it. Here are the sympoms:

When the engine is running and the cluth is in it's really quiet.

When you let the clutch out in neutral there is some bearing noise.

There is no noticeable change in the noise in neutral with PTO engaged.

When you drive. wow! deafening.

when you push the tractor in the shop in neutral pretty good amount of noise.

I know that one of the rear final gear housings is cracked and has been welded in the past. (left side nearest gearbox) I also know that the thing leaks like the exxon valdez when I fill teh gearbox (leaks out the right rear final drive)

So I have several questions:

1. Any ideas where to start on correcting the problem/ ideas on what the problem is?

2. Are parts still available? (bearings)


3. given the situation had I better look for a better gearbox/differential/ final drive and just graft the whole thing on there?

By the way, this is farmall serial # 62027, we bought it from the original owner's family and it does have the stainless 'farmall cub' emblems still intact.

thanks for any input!

Tim and Garrett McCormack

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George Willer
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Postby George Willer » Sun Feb 12, 2006 4:11 pm

Tim,

It sounds very much like a problem with a bearing on the lower (pinion) shaft, or the bearings on the reverse idler shaft..

Your leakage is consistant with over-filling the transmission case. Remove the check plug low on the right side of the case and let the extra run out.

The stainless emblems are a definite plus, but are not consistant with your serial number. Either the hood or radiator base carrying the serial number plate has been changed. If we knew the casting codes from your major castings we could tell you which it was.

A father/son restoration sounds like a great idea. We're here to help.
George Willer
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timmccormack
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casting numbers:

Postby timmccormack » Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:31 pm

George,

thanks for the quick reply. The casting number on the rear final drive housings is 350806 R2, identical on both sides.

just below the carb (identified as IH type) is 251351 R7

Am I reading this right that this is 1948 model?

The torque tube assy has an R1 on it.

Hope this helps identify the machine..

I'm assuming that the pinion shaft bearings will probably necessitate removal of differential carrier assy? If that's the case I"ll probably go thru the gearbox at the same time.... hopefully there's a timken cross reference number for all the bearings I need.


I guess it's time for an I&t manual and to dig in! and to look for a final drive housing...

any tips on how to proceed will be appreciated.

Tim Mc/

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update on noises.

Postby timmccormack » Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:13 pm

George was 100% right on target. We pulled the rear PTO plate and cleaned all kinds of gook out of the differential housing.

We examined the pinion shaft and found that the bearing cage was totally trashed and bearing rollers were turned sideways and missing. The differential carrier has about 1/4" or more side thrust from bearings being too loose... I'm guessing that we either have another wiped out bearing or when they repaired the final drive housing they neglected to set the preload on the carrier bearings. Hopefully nothing is beyond repair. The pinion looks OK from what little I can see of it and the ring gear has some very slight rust evidence, so I think that this is something that happened recently, I would suspect that if the tractor had been run alot like this it would have trashed the pinion and ring gear. I suspect that the former owner probably just hooked up to the tractor and dragged it out of the barn and caused the damage??

I guess the logical next step is cracking the tractor at the torque tube/ gearbox junction and going at it that way?

My son has completely enjoyed himself this afternoon.... seems that grime is really cool to an 8 year old, and he just loves diggin it out.... little does he know..

OK. Guess I'm going to be needing parts..... No case IH dealers here... any suggestions for reputable parts houses?

Thanks!

Tim and Garrett

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Postby Rudi » Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:57 pm

Tim and Garrett:

No CaseIH Dealers nearby,

Then I would suggest Carter & Grunewald. Ken Updike is the parts honcho there and I would imagine he could get ya just about whatever you need...

No, I don't own stock :roll: :!: :oops: :roll: :lol:

But, Ken does know his cubs and C&G are very reputable. I have no qualms about purchasing from them if I was stateside.

Also, for those parts you do not need new and used will suffice... then there is our site sponsors:

Ralph's Cubs
JP Tractor Salvage
TM Tractor Parts.

Hard decision here -- all are exceptionally good people to deal with. If all 3 had the same part, I guess distance and shipping would probably be the deciding factor.. :roll: :? :!: :D

You are one lucky lad. To be able to share rebuilding your Cub with your son is a joy many of us would wish to have, but cannot. In my case, my son has absolutely no interest in my Cubs, nor is he handy at all with his hands except on a keyboard and a cutting board. Great kid and I am so very proud of him. He just doesn't like grease much... :roll: :cry: :!:

Please enjoy every moment of this experience with him and Please share with us, so those of us who cannot enjoy this experience on our own, can share it vicariously through you and your son :!: 8) :D
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Postby Don McCombs » Sun Feb 12, 2006 8:04 pm

Tim,

Forget the I&T manual. IMHO they are not worth the paper they're printed on. Get the Operator's Manual, Parts Catalog and Service Manual from http://www.binderbooks.com . While you're waiting for those to arrive, you can be looking over the online copies on Rudi's manual server at http://www.cleancomputes.com/Cub/index.html . Have fun. :)
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Postby George Willer » Sun Feb 12, 2006 8:07 pm

Tim,

The numbers that end in R followed by a digit or two are part numbers that don't help identification very much.

Here's a picture of one of my tractor engines from the ATIS Cub FAQ that identifies the numbers. By looking at the casting code format on your engine, you will be familiar with what they look like. All major castings have a similar code on them... those are what we need to make a positive identification. The torque tube number is the most likely to be an original, and it's behind the clutch pedal and battery cable.

To confuse matters... by coincidence, the letter that identifies a casting as 1948 is also R. The format of a casting number is: *4*1*R* where the "*" looks like a screw head. That example code means the mold for the casting was made on Aplil Fools day of 1948.

It's hard to read the numbers in the picture, but it is *9*28*R*, indicating September 28, 1948.

The casting codes for the years the stainless emblems were used end in Z, A, B, C, D.

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Postby Buzzard Wing » Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:01 pm

I Know pretty much exactly what you are talking about.... mine was making a similar noise and I have finally gotten around to opening up the tranny. It was definitely a bearing.

The problem I 'diagnosed' was it just plain got too wet in there, that's why my friend always parks stuff under cover.

I will be working up a 'tutorial' one day soon, but I still have to put it back together. I have some good photos and will offer any assistance I can.

This is a GREAT project for a kid your sons age, the transmission and differential are essentially the same as any standard tanny car. He WILL remember it forever. And gain a lot of skills and confidence at the same time. He may also gain a respect for machinery that most folks just don't have anymore.

Not a real hard job, but you need to pull a lot off the tractor to get at it.

I found some large lumber (8x12's) to hold up the torque tube/front of the tractor, but you can find other ways by spending some time searching this site. Lots of good ideas there.

Buy all 3 manuals.... excellent $100 investment for a Cub owner. The Case/IH ones are 'reprinted' but are the final versions and cover all Cubs.

It has worked out to be a bigger project than I intended and certainly more expensive, but the numbers really are reasonable. I did replace all the seals AND bearings/races in the final drives too. I would rather not need to touch it again in 5 years to replace a bearing.

No need to search around for parts, I get virtually everything from Carter and Gruenwald. Very nice folks to deal with and they have an excellent stock of Cub parts. The prices are probably better than you can do anywhere else too. In a jam you can get bearings and seals from NAPA (should have a tractor cross reference book), but I ended up with innner bearings from two different manufacturers in the Cub's axles doing that. All the bearings and seals for the transmission and differential were about $260.

Plan on it taking a while and try not to get too frustrated, it is always the simple things (a BOLT) that seem to be the hardest.

Here are a couple of shots:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/Bu ... b9c21d.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/Bu ... 771696.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/Bu ... 951bd0.jpg

Proof that it was overflowing out of the differential??
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/Bu ... 0Small.jpg

Larry
1971 Cub (Rufus) 1950 Cub (Cathy) 1965 Lo Boy Fast Hitch (Nameless III) 1970 Cub 1000 Loader & Fast Hitch (Lee)

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Postby Russ Leggitt » Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:16 pm

Hi Tim,

Welcome to the MOST helpful CUB Board on the Face of the Planet. You
have gotten responces already from some of the resident experts. I
have constructed a Excel Workbook of all the parts ecept the electrical.
I would be glad to send to you either by e-mail or CD if you like. It
might come in handy in making out a parts list. Also, you will find in some
of the helpful hints on this board a cross reference for many of the bearings, gaskets and seals.

I along with others would strongly recomment you purchase a parts
manual and repair manual. I have found that the Case New Holland
dealers can still get most of the parts you will need. Don't know how
close one is to you there in Florida.

If you decide you want a copy of the Excel file e-mail me and let me know
which one you want.

Sounds like you have a wonderful son there. That is a GREAT Father and
Son Project. Wish I had a son or Grandson old enough, oh well, in 3 or 4
years maybe.

Good Luck.

Russ L

timmccormack
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Ok, Found the casting dates.

Postby timmccormack » Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:16 pm

Thanks for all the great advice so far! I have bought alot of parts from C&G for my allis' woods mower so I'll be giving them a call tomorrow.

After doing some 'scrubbing' I have found that all the casting dates seem to be mid to late january 1949... which also seems to jive with the serial number plate, so it would seem that the stainless F-A-R-M-A-L-L--C-U-B doen't belong with this tractor... hmmmm. I also received another almost flawless hood with the deal, maybe that's more proper... will have to research.


Guess I'll be splitting the tractor soon... looking forward to it. It's remarkably similar to the Model A Fords which are my real true love... I now see why HM Chauvin liked the cubs... his knowledge in the Model A field is just as respected as it is here.

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Postby Jim Hudson » Sun Feb 12, 2006 11:34 pm

Call Tom or e-mail him in the morning and tell him what you are doing and he will send what you need. http://www.tmtractor.com/
Young man for work, old man for advice

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Postby Buzzard Wing » Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:27 am

Thanks Jim, guess I should give them a try. Sure seem to have everything and at good prices besides! I like the pictures, good to look at before you take something apart too.
1971 Cub (Rufus) 1950 Cub (Cathy) 1965 Lo Boy Fast Hitch (Nameless III) 1970 Cub 1000 Loader & Fast Hitch (Lee)

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Russ Leggitt
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Location: Oxford, Ms

Postby Russ Leggitt » Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:39 am

Tim,

I don't know if you know this or not, but the hood/tanks came in what
is refered to as a "Long" or "short" version. This is so named because
of the hood support or instrument panel [as some call it]. You will notice
that the arms on the support that the hood attaches to are longer on
some than on others.

Hope this helps some.

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George Willer
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Postby George Willer » Mon Feb 13, 2006 12:01 pm

Russ Leggitt wrote:Tim,

I don't know if you know this or not, but the hood/tanks came in what
is refered to as a "Long" or "short" version. This is so named because
of the hood support or instrument panel [as some call it]. You will notice
that the arms on the support that the hood attaches to are longer on
some than on others.

Hope this helps some.


Tim,

To amplify on what Russ said... the original hood on your tractor was the long version, and had a rear support (or dash) to match it. Your "stainless" hood is the short version, as are all hoods after mid '49. That's the only difference between the '47 to mid '49 hoods and the mid '49 to early '54 hoods.
George Willer
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