Transmission input shaft bearing

Farmall Cub Forum -- Questions and answers to all of your Cub related issues.

Moderator: Team Cub

Forum rules
Notice: For sale and wanted posts are not allowed in this forum. Please use our free classifieds or one of our site sponsors for your tractor and parts needs.

Postby George Willer » Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:23 am

Don McCombs wrote:I believe, the McMaster-Carr part number for the bearing being discussed is 2349K191.


Don,

That number is for an open bearing at $13.62. A double sealed one is one digit different... 2349K491 at $16.08. Although the original bearing was open it had a special lubrication hole to line up with the hole in the galley so it could receive lube. I think the sealed bearing will serve better.

Thanks much for finding a good source. I'm sure it will help others. :D
George Willer
http://gwill.net

The most affectionate creature in the world is a wet dog. Ambrose Bierce
User avatar
George Willer
Cub Pro
Cub Pro
 
Posts: 7011
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2003 9:36 pm
Location: OHIO, Fremont
Zip Code: 43420
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Postby tom bastin » Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:26 am

hi folks
please forgive me for jumping in here but this looked like a good place to get in. im a long time reader and have been to a few events, several of you know me from the shows ive been to. my cub is a 1950 and it used the cyl roller brg. this was the only brg i could not get from work i had to buy from ih. as for the replacement ball brg that george is speaking of that is a very common brg a sealed number would be 6004-2rs and would be lubed for life. if you were to pull the seals you would see that it has about one third full of grease. if anyone needs help with brgs or seals i can help. just send me a list i can ship anywhere. thanks tom
1967 JD 110 AND MODEL JD HAY BALER
1950 IH CUB
1996 HONDA GOLDWING sold
relaced with honda ruckas
tom bastin
5+ Years
5+ Years
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:24 pm
Location: INDIANA

Postby Bigdog » Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:27 am

Tom! Where have you been hiding?
Bigdog
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem.

My wife says I don't listen to her. - - - - - - - - Or something like that!

http://www.cubtug.com
User avatar
Bigdog
Team Cub
Team Cub
 
Posts: 23820
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2003 12:50 pm
Location: OH, Stoutsville
Zip Code: 43154
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Postby tom bastin » Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:40 am

hi bigdog

just still lurking but the brg issue was just to good to pass by lots of bad info out there on brgs. this is one area that i can and will help with.

ps im still looking for a cub cadet model 100 or 70

thanks tom
1967 JD 110 AND MODEL JD HAY BALER
1950 IH CUB
1996 HONDA GOLDWING sold
relaced with honda ruckas
tom bastin
5+ Years
5+ Years
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:24 pm
Location: INDIANA

Postby Bus Driver » Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:01 pm

Those who found water while draining the transmission probably were draining an overfilled transmission. Assuming that the water was "added" to a correctly filled transmission, the lube would have floated on the water.
Luck favors those who are prepared
User avatar
Bus Driver
Team Cub Mentor
Team Cub Mentor
 
Posts: 2650
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:26 pm
Location: NC

Postby Buzzard Wing » Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:04 pm

Tom, how did I do on bearing info???

BTW, my bearing on the 50 was no good, but still intact. And I suspect the ONLY cause of the problem was certainly water contamination. All the lube had floated out past the differential seals to the brakes/final drives.
Image
Image
Image

I may be wrong, but I believe that bearing would still be fine (after 50 odd years) if not for the water.

Larry
1971 Cub (Rufus) 1950 Cub (Cathy) 1965 Lo Boy Fast Hitch (Nameless III) 1970 Cub 1000 Loader & Fast Hitch (Lee)
User avatar
Buzzard Wing
Cub Pro
Cub Pro
 
Posts: 10036
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:14 pm
Location: RI, Newport
Zip Code: 02840

Postby Don McCombs » Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:17 pm

George,

You're absolutely correct. I just didn't go to the right far enough in the chart. :oops:
Don McCombs
MD, Deep Creek Lake

"1950 Something" Farmall Cub
1977 International Cub w/FH
1978 International Cub
1948 Farmall Super A
1951 Farmall Super C w/FH
User avatar
Don McCombs
Team Cub Mentor
Team Cub Mentor
 
Posts: 10541
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2003 6:45 am
Location: MD, Deep Creek Lake
Zip Code: 21550
Tractors Owned: "1950 Something" Farmall Cub
1977 International Cub w/FH
1978 International Cub
1948 Farmall Super A
1951 Farmall Super C w/FH
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Postby BigBill » Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:55 pm

George Willer wrote:
BigBill wrote:
Donny M wrote:Bill,
As others have stated, the bearing in question is near the top of the tranny case well out of the fluid, if the level is correct. This bearing relies only on splash from the gears on the pinion shaft. There's a galley cast into the case that provides a path to the weep hole directly above the bearing.
8)


Thanks Donny for pointing that out. I remember seeing the weep hole when i pulled off the shifter housing to take a peek in my tranny to see what the noise was all about. But were that drip hole is there isn't much oil there too with the level being too low and the forward motion of the tractor sending all the oil towards the rear in the housing. The bearing is getting a double wammy. I truely believe right now in raising the oil level in the tranny will help this problem out.


Bill,

Be careful! There may be some here who are as inexperienced as you are and may be missled by your unfounded ramblings. One thing that comes up often is the problems caused by overfilled transmissions. Your beliefs have no place here unless they can be backed up by known and demonstrated facts.

Here's the fact: The bearing in question has slowly failed after nearly 60 years in service in some cases and over the same time spoiled the input shaft. The modification to use the sealed bearing is intended to make it possible to use the expensive shaft again after slight modification.

Another fact: The variation in the bearing number to indicate the proper seal is the suffix. All bearings in a given series have the same O.D., I.D., and width. Study up!


I was looking for starter/generator ball bearings and found a list with the same 4 numbers(series) that have different ID bores while the OD & width were the same. I will find this list and post it so you can see what i'm talkin gabout.

I don't believe that the sealed bearing is the fix for this problem. First you need to figure out what is wrong. I believe the oil level isn't high enough to keep that upper bearing lubed. Now with the sealed bearing in its place when grease runs out of it, the only thing that can happen is the bearing will fail because the oil can't get inside tyhe bearing easily.

Sorry GW but bandaids don't fix problems first you have to find the root cause to fix the problem. I'm starting to think i purchased the wrong tractor now too if it has this many problems. Maybe the Fcub isn't what i need a super A will probably do my job. I may have to go green....

Why when i look at the oil level on my other IH tractors with the same tranny/diff setup all the oil levels are higher? I believe the oil level on the FCub is too low to provide lube to the uppr front bearing. Does the oil level change on the newer FCubs? I was thinking maybe somewher ealong the line they realized they had a lube problem.
I'm technically misunderstood at times i guess its been this way my whole life so why should it change now.
BigBill
5+ Years
5+ Years
 
Posts: 5705
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:02 pm
Location: in northern usa
Zip Code: 00000

Postby Donny M » Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:20 pm

Bill,
Since you like tests, here's one for you to try;
Jack up one rear wheel, put the tranny in gear, any gear then take the shifter off the transmission, now with your face near the top of the transmission start the tractor. Oh, I should mention; bring a towel :twisted:
8)
Donny M
5+ Years
5+ Years
 

Postby BigBill » Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:28 pm

Donny M wrote:Bill,
Since you like tests, here's one for you to try;
Jack up one rear wheel, put the tranny in gear, any gear then take the shifter off the transmission, now with your face near the top of the transmission start the tractor. Oh, I should mention; bring a towel :twisted:
8)


Why do you have to be like this? What did i do wrong?

The arabs aren't completely wrong, heck we can't even get along with each other. We don't even respect each others views. If you want to tell someone something lets have some respect and do it in a private message. If you don't want me here just tell me its that simple.
Last edited by BigBill on Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I'm technically misunderstood at times i guess its been this way my whole life so why should it change now.
BigBill
5+ Years
5+ Years
 
Posts: 5705
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:02 pm
Location: in northern usa
Zip Code: 00000

Postby Bus Driver » Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:36 pm

Donny makes a good point. Years ago, I had to remove and do some repairs on a heavy-duty 4 speed New Process transmission in a pickup truck. Left off the top shifter cover to make the trans a bit lighter and less bulky. Filled the trans through the top after reinstalling. Cranked the engine. Have you ever had the interior of a pickup sprayed with 90 weight?
As far as I know, every Cub made had the same transmission fill level and specified fill capacity- for 33 years inclusive.
Luck favors those who are prepared
User avatar
Bus Driver
Team Cub Mentor
Team Cub Mentor
 
Posts: 2650
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:26 pm
Location: NC

Postby Donny M » Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:39 pm

The point is, Bill, in most cases that original bearing has lasted for more than 50 years, there is no lube level problem, there is no lubrication problem at all. My tongue in check post was meant to drive this point home.
The reason these bearings fail is poor maintenance practices where the transmission fills with water. The reason the sealed bearing is used in the first place is that the original bearing can only be purchased through Case/IH at inflated prices.
This horse died long ago :cry: I did not intend to offend you :!:
8)
Donny M
5+ Years
5+ Years
 

Postby BIGHOSS » Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:05 pm

I just uploaded some pics of the teardown of transmission. The pic of the rear end of the main shaft shows a groove that the bearing wore. My question is this, was there a groove there when shaft was brand new? Or did the bearing wear that much of a groove over a 60 year period?

http://s222.photobucket.com/albums/dd21 ... all%20Cub/
We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give......Winston Churchill
User avatar
BIGHOSS
5+ Years
5+ Years
 
Posts: 1246
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:55 pm
Location: TN, Lebanon
Zip Code: 37087
Tractors Owned: 1947 Cub S/N 9216
1960 Cub S/N 217053
1974 Cub S/N 244814
w/ C-22 Mower & C-144 Cultivator

Ford 3000 Gas S/N C375091 w/Bushhog QT2345 Loader & 6' Squealer Bushhog
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Postby bob in CT » Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:02 pm

I am sorry this has turned into what it has. perhaps it is my fault for not properly explaining the lube problem.

First, I have a later transmission with a much small bearing OD than Mr. Willer's bearing replacement can address. I took a couple of photos to show the original bearing with a small round hole that allows lube oil to enter and lube this bearing. i did not set up my studio lights so it is a little dark but you can see the hole I had to cut into the replacement bearing to provide the same lubrication system the Factory intended.

Image

In the next photo the bearing on the right shows some damage to the needles. I was not setting up to show damage as there are spots with more obvious problems. The original bearing does not have a cage as you can see in the new bearing on the left. The cage allowed me some room to break through with the drill bit. The problem with the new bearing is without the hole, it would not get a regular supply of lube oil from the galleries designed to deliver oil to this bearing. That is the "lube problem" as this bearing was not designed to be lubed by splash alone, it requires a splash plus a guided drip-down path to the outer cage and an access hole that needs to be aligned at assembly.

Image

My transmission came with lots of baggage. It looks like it locked up at one point and there was a lot of ground metal that was feeding into the gallery that brought oil to the bearing. Both the shaft and the bearings are pitted. I like the idea of a bearing with a precision inner race rather than using the shaft as the race and the sealed bearing fix for the earlier style addresses this. Now I need to buy a bearing and a shaft and in this case I hope my oil hole works and does not cause the bearing to fail. I am fairly certain it will fail along with the new shaft without the oil supply hole so I have nothing to lose. The outer cage is probably carbo-nitrided as it has a thin case on it that cannot be drilled until the hardened surface is ground off. I can't think of any way to predict if this bit of surgery will last so I have to do the testing inside the transmission. Needless to say, it is a lot of work to tear it down so I would have abandoned this roll of the dice in a heartbeat if George's proven fix was appropriate for this later gearbox.

As you can see in the photos, there is not a lot of meat to this bearing. To go to an inner race design, the OD needs to get bigger. That means a precise boring job on the original case to modify it for another bearing design. Not an easy job and the fun can evaporate when it is a re-do....
User avatar
bob in CT
Cub Pro
Cub Pro
 
Posts: 5239
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:34 am
Location: CT, Manchester
Zip Code: 06040
Tractors Owned: 77 Cub (red); 74 Cub; 52 Cub; 50 Cub ( post-demo)
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Postby Buzzard Wing » Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:11 pm

Bill, I just talked to Kit yesterday and he tells me what a great guy you are... I know he is right, and I appreciate the assistance you sent me on Gilles Cadet. I have also met and conversed with both GW and Donny on many occasions, I hold them in the highest regard both personally and especially regarding Cubs.

Neither was trying to offend you, that is not their style.

That transmission was used in well over 300,000 tractors (same one in originals, 100's etc Cadets) and I am sure carelessly (not) maintained by a decent sized group of owners. I consider it bullet-proof and certainly time tested. One of the most reliable pieces of machinery I have ever touched. I am pretty sure the 'problems' with it are due to an operator ignoring the obvious sounds of a bearing problem until the fixes mentioned are required.

I believe that is along the lines of the point they were trying make.

I have pretty limited mechanical experience, but I did try synthetic gear lube in a snomobile chain case (transmission) before it was common and the stuff would come out the seals. Not sure why that happened, but I changed the synthetic out and it quit doing it. The lesson I took from that (right or wrong) is not to use synthetic in an 'older' application. I figured it was the seals. Looked to me like a leak since it was 'leaving' the case. Went back to dino lube and problem solved. Ever since then I am a bit leery of deviation from the 'factory recommended' lubrication.
1971 Cub (Rufus) 1950 Cub (Cathy) 1965 Lo Boy Fast Hitch (Nameless III) 1970 Cub 1000 Loader & Fast Hitch (Lee)
User avatar
Buzzard Wing
Cub Pro
Cub Pro
 
Posts: 10036
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:14 pm
Location: RI, Newport
Zip Code: 02840

PreviousNext

Return to Farmall Cub

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bob McCarty, sford and 5 guests