Generator and Cut-Out

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Re: Generator and Cut-Out

Postby Bus Driver » Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:17 am

A search of several websites results in considerable confusion. One explanation is that the person who writes ad/catalog copy may know virtually nothing about the product in question.
I found one site that seems to be authoritative.
http://case-ihparts.com/products/?view= ... ct_id=4291
I think you actually have a voltage regulator. The unit apparently can be used as either a cutout only or regulator. If it was mine, I would install it so as to gain all the benefits of a regulator.
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Re: Generator and Cut-Out

Postby Bus Driver » Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:43 am

Another site.
http://www.rjtractorparts.com/ItemSearc ... 9&Brand=93

Note the use of conversion kit VRK1815. I am not familiar with that kit.

Some sites note that the 4th terminal is under the regulator.
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Re: Generator and Cut-Out

Postby Rudi » Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:44 am

Ok, here are the pics:

Image

I looked under the cut-out/regulator inside the saddle mount and found:

Image

a heretofore undetected A/Gen Terminal.

Just before I left the house to get the pics, I got a call from Tom at Buzzell's Service Center which is our AC Delco authorized repair depot. Tom said check under the saddle mount.. so I did and poof there was the other terminal. Ok.. surprise to both of us. He then said according to the AC Delco books, that I should hook the A Term to the A/Gen Terminal under the saddle mount. The L terminal goes to the light switch where the field would have gone. B Terminal goes to Battery and Field Terminal goes to the Field Terminal on the Generator. He said the L terminal limits the charging rate - Low Charge/High Charge.

Image

Image

So that is what I did.

Now, he said that they never see tractors or usually even many vehicles in the shop, they see the generators, alternators, starters, regulators and such and every once in a blue moonn something like what I brung in.. a Cut-Out, 6 volt Generators and a 12 volt Starter Generator. Tom said it is getting pretty rare now to see stuff like this. So he said, wire it up according to the book and then suggested that I check with me Cub friends to see ifn it all makes sense.

Image

This is the innards of this particular critter. Terminals from Left to Right : L B F

So here is the question. With a 4 position switch, is this wired correctly. :?:

  • A Terminal on Generator to Gen Terminal on Cut-Out
  • F Terminal on Generator to F Terminal on Cut-Out
  • B Terminal on Cut-Out to Ammeter live side
  • L Terminal on Cut-Out to Resistor on Light Switch

From what I can deduce, this would be correct.. but I am no electrical whiz here.. just trying to follow the schematics. I also want to get this right so that the hood can go back on as soon as I get the filter screens from the Model A parts supplier in the US. Those should be here tomorrow I hope. Then once that is done, off to Princess to get the last of the Hydraulics fitted so I can be ready for snow :D
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Re: Generator and Cut-Out

Postby Hengy » Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:55 pm

That would be a voltage regulator. A cutout would have only one relay inside the cap. At this point, you can eliminate the resistor in your light switch and let the regulator do the regulating...

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Re: Generator and Cut-Out

Postby Bus Driver » Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:14 pm

While this thread is alive and well, Steiner shows a similar (identical?) regulator ABC152 and offers a "kit" ABC188 for use with the regulator if replacing cutouts. The listed Delco 1116766 is the only generator cutout used on Cubs, as best I can determine. The Steiner kit, very pricey, appears to be just a wire with a resistor. Not sure what it is supposed to do.
The earliest Cubs with regulator used Delco 1118308 regulator.


http://www.steinertractor.com/ABC188-vo ... ersion-kit
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Re: Generator and Cut-Out

Postby Rudi » Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:24 pm

Well, I wired it up sort of according to the

Image

Late Wiring Schematic on ATIS. Not sure if a 3 position switch makes a difference? I have a 4 position switch. Anyways, it is wired so that the L terminal goes to the ammeter which then goes to the contact that is indicated as connected to the ignition switch and fuse.

  • L Terminal at the Cut-Out/Regulator is wired to the Light Switch at the same contact as the fuse is in the above drawing.
  • B Terminal at the Cut-Out /Regulator is wired to the right side of the ammeter in the above drawing
  • F Terminal at the Cut-Out/Regualtor is wired to the Field Terminal on the Generator
  • G Terminal at the Cut-out/Regulator is wired to the A Terminal on the Generator
  • B Terminal side of the Ammeter is wired to the Light Switch as per previous diagram in the TC-37F

I sure hope that is right..... it is what I can best figure out. Haven't started Ellie yet... cause I want to make sure that it is right. The one doubt that I have is the last line.. where the Battery Terminal side of the Ammeter goes to the Light Switch. On a 4 position Light Switch with the Cut-Out that is how it is supposed to be wired. Is it the same for this Cut-Out/Regulator ?? Or is that going to do damage?? I haven't hooked up the Battery into the circuit yet. Everything is still isolated from the battery. I kind of hope that this is the regulator hookup vice the cut-out hookup.
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Re: Generator and Cut-Out

Postby Bigdog » Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:03 pm

Rudi - on a 4 position switch the F terminal of the generator is connected to the light switch. With a voltage regulator, you do not have that connection. Your generator F terminal goes to the regulator and your 4 position switch is no longer controlling charge rate. It is functioning as a light switch only and is essentially off in the first two positions. Your input to your light switch is fed from the Load terminal on the regulator as you have already described.
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Re: Generator and Cut-Out

Postby Rudi » Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:16 pm

BD:

Right. The F terminal lead goes to the Regulator or whatever it is. Got that. A goes to the Gen Term. Got that. Battery term goes to the Ammeter -- got that. And the L terminal goes to the light switch as shown. Got that.

Am I correct with adding the connection from the ammeter to the light switch? need power from somewhere yes? And since I do not have ignition to feed the switch, it has to come from the ammeter. Is that a correct assumption? Or should there not be that connection? And the power comes via the L terminal?

I know, I am lousy with this stuff, but I think I am learning.... slowly.. at any rate.
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Re: Generator and Cut-Out

Postby Bigdog » Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:29 pm

Rudi - the light switch is fed from the L terminal on the regulator. No need for a wire from the ammeter to the light switch.
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Re: Generator and Cut-Out

Postby Rudi » Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:36 pm

Ahhh.. Now I got it :big smile:
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Re: Generator and Cut-Out

Postby Bill E Bob » Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:47 pm

Rudi wrote:Ahhh.. Now I got it :big smile:


That makes two of us :oops: I always knew WHERE the wires went just never the WHY! Now if I could just learn the dang 'puters like you! :roll: :wink:
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Re: Generator and Cut-Out

Postby g19605 » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:00 pm

I did a bit of checking on the subject and have a few more things to add. First, GSS 1310 is quite helpful and if you look at page 43 and follow the current flow through the various paths and the voltage across the numerous coils etc you can see that the L terminal does, if fact, enable the two things that I presented in my earlier post. However the diverting of current from the cutout's contacts only would occur when the generator is not charging.

I looked at the schematic diagrams for an early Cub in the parts book and will try to describe the wiring as I see it.

First: the hot (-) side of the battery is picked up at the starter switch and wired to the ammeter.The other side of the ammeter then goes to the B terminal on the regulator. The F term. goes to the F term. of the gen. The G term of the reg. goes to the A term of the gen.

NOW, for the L term on the regulator!!!!
It is completely divorced from the battery and gen. circuit (except for connections within the regulator). It becomes a connection point for all equipment other than the battery and generator. The lights, coil, maybe a horn or radio etc. It is normally referred to as the " LIGHT " terminal. Possibly we should rename it the LOAD terminal. It is connected to one side of the ignition switch as well as the fuse. Of course the other side of that switch goes to the minus side of the coil. The other side of the fuse goes to the light switch.

I noted some confusion about cutouts -- a cutout is a relay that disconnects (cuts out) the generator from the battery when the voltage at the generator is below the battery voltage and therefore cannot push current into the battery. All regulators have a cutout inside, it is the relay with heavy contacts. The old third brush generators had ONLY a cutout.

Also, the output of a generator is from the armature (A terminal), and it feeds into the regulator by way of what most manufacturers call the A terminal -- but these guys call it the G terminal.

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Re: Generator and Cut-Out

Postby John *.?-!.* cub owner » Sat Oct 17, 2009 9:31 am

Rudi wrote:..... The L terminal goes to the light switch where the field would have gone. B Terminal goes to Battery and Field Terminal goes to the Field Terminal on the Generator. He said the L terminal limits the charging rate - Low Charge/High Charge. ....
Rudi, I question the accuracy of this statement. Standard connection on a regulator for the L is LOAD, and supplies power to the lights and ignition (rather than getting it via a jumper form the ammeter as you would have now). This also helps control charge rate more quickly than just waiting for battery voltage to change, but I believe you will find that connecting the L terminal of the regulator to the F position of light switch will be putting a ground on the hot side, and either result in smoke, or in draining of the battery.
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Re: Generator and Cut-Out

Postby Rudi » Sat Oct 17, 2009 9:49 am

John:

You are correct,,

Image

In the original configuration as a Cut-Out, the Field would have gone to the resistor terminal as shown above. That is the way it was with the old Cut-Out,

Since I now have a regulator which is basically a charging regulated cut-out (an explanation that works for me.. :roll: ), then the proper wiring setup shoud be as shown below in the late wiring diagram.

Image

The Load Terminal goes to the terminal at the end of the green line, just abaft the fuse on a 4 position light switch. Some day I will get lucky and find a 3 position switch to swap out. Then Granny can have the 4 position.

I left the post as it was, cause that is how it got explained to me. Tom did more checking and found the other terminal. That is when it became clear that this was actually a 6 V Positive Ground Regulator instead of simply a Cut-Out. I have wired the Regulator in line with the late wiring diagram without the connection from the ammeter to light switch.... :arrow: :oops: wheew.. cause that probably would have resulted in a crispy type regulator.

I left it as it was so as not to cause problems with context or continuitiy of the thread. I probably should have posted the change a little more clearly. I am beginning to learn :D Am I closer now?
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Re: Generator and Cut-Out

Postby John *.?-!.* cub owner » Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:51 am

As a side note, it was not necessary to use the L terminal, you could have ignored it and left the ammeter to light switch wiring as it was.
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