Took apart my Hub City model 22 reducer/reverser

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Took apart my Hub City model 22 reducer/reverser

Postby Redcub » Thu May 26, 2011 12:33 am

Hub City Model 22:
It was raining here in Oregon today (rain again? what the hay?) so I stayed home with the wife today. After about 2 hrs she suggested ( her words) that I go work or the Cub or somthing. Yes, or something would happen to ME! I am delayed getting the Howard L-28 Rotovator out to the sand blast shop so I decided to tear apart my Hub City model 22, PTO RPM reducer/ direction reverser. I took some pics and searched for posts and threads relating to the Hub City unit. After I printed some 50 or so pages of posts, I came away with tons of information from Farmallcub.com, and that was only back to 2008.

Special thanks to Jim Becker, Rick Prentice, Eugene, Winfield Dave, grumpy, Trent M, Bigdog, Buzzard Wing, Steve K. Calif, Rudi, Paul B, Barnyard, cowboy, Pony Master, John Cub owner, and many others that made posts in the past about this subject. The post archives are invaluable here! The subject goes on for quite a while so I decided to make a post with some pics. I hope this helps somebody else out in the future. Sorry for the lengh of it. :oops:

For those of you that are new to the subject ( as I STILL am), Hub City in South Dakota http://www.hubcityinc.com/ makes a unit that mounts on the back of your Cubs PTO shaft. It does two things: it reverses the direction of the PTO from Counter-Clockwise (C-C/W) to Clockwise (C/W). The Cubs PTO turns C-C/W and the rest of the world makes tractors that turn C/W. :lol: That means that you must buy equipment special made for the C-C/W Cub, Buy a Hub City PTO adapter to use modern equipment, or not use your PTO ( I guess ). The second thing it does is reduce the PTO RPM down to the standard modern 540 RPM used today on equipment for small tractors.

Note: Hub City makes many different variations of the Model 22. Some are a 1:1 ratio and only change the direction of rotation. Others do both. Some have female imput and male out put, others are male/male ( see Style A,C,DO,SO ). Many ratios are available from the factory and all of the Model 22's use the same case, so I am guessing that perhaps you might be able to buy different gears and swap them out. :?: :?: This could be completly wrong so forgive me on that one guys.

While the modern version of Model 22 is still in production, the 2.78:1 gear ratio is issue has been put to bed as a myth and a typo error ( thanks Steve for clearing that up). The ratio that they currently make that is best suited for the Cub is 2.53:1. I have the 2.53:1 ratio myself. So you would need to slow down your Cub's engine a bit to get the 540 PTO RPM you are looking for. 540 times 2.53 = 1366.2 engine RPM's on the Cub. But does that really matter much?

Model 230 has a 3.11:1 ratio so at 1750 engine RPM you would have 580 PTO output. Not bad, but would you need to buy a whole bunch of adapters to slip on/weld on ( they make them also ) to make the whole thing work? And what would that add to your price? I don't just don't know about the Model 230. Hey Pro's! would it really hurt to run that mower at 580 RPM's?. What to you think about the Model 230? What about the 2.53 ratio? I'd like your advice on that. Thanks.

For those with a Howard L-28(Hank, and Todd) or S-28 ( like John), they have no need for a Hub City, or other brand PTO reducer. The Howard '28 was made just for the Cub and it takes the high speed PTO and reduces the RPM internally. Jim Becker was nice enough to tell me that the IH A has a PTO that turns C/W and is internally geared down to 540 RPM, and Paul B posted back in 2010 that a Cub Cadet turns C-C/W like the Cub, but at a max engine speed of 3600 RPM turns 514.285 RPM. All good to know and compile here.

You will see Hub City Model 22's with the 2.53 ratio for sale on E-bay, Craigslist, and other sites. They can go from $500-$1000. Ask about the ratio, shaft size, and splines before you by it! If you intend to rototill, you would still be lacking the "creep" gear found on modern tractors, but sadley lacking on the Cub. That means your Cub goes to fast in first gear to do a real good job. There are despeeder units that go (bolt in)in front of the tranny on some hwy mower Cubs out there ( Pro's I can't remember the name). The most sought after is the Howard CD-6. The unit bolts on to the left rear final drive and slows down your Cub by about 1/2 speed in all gears. They tend to go for about 500-1000 bucks used. Howard no longer makes the CD-6.

By reading up on the suject I also found out that the Cub's PTO shaft is 31/32nd's" not 1inch, and it has 10 splines. I hear that Case makes a 10-to-6 spline adapter. Not sure on the price or P/N and if it is still made here in 2011. The output on the Hub City Model 22 is a 6 spline 1 3/8's" size.

If you are looking for the Foot Mounting kit it is P/N 0229-00026. I do not have the gasket P/N yet or any bearing information.
For more information on the Hub City Model 22, download a catalog here ( see page F-11): http://www.hubcityinc.com/documents/6f- ... Drives.pdf
Hub City 605-225-0360 in South Dakota.

Back in July of 2009 a few members here started working with Hub City and convinced them to do a special run of Model 22's with the 2.53 ratio and proper shaft size for Cub owners. It all looked good. Members were saying "put me down for one!" But the minumum order of units never came about. Very sad indeed.
Here are my pics:
Image
Image
Image

Right now my Hub City unit is stuck on the PTO shaft. I'll try a gear puller or my wifes salad tongs from the kitchen, and maybe some heat if I have to. From the looks of it, my PTO shaft might be bent. Oh,just great. It currently does not have any kind of support. Do any members out there use some kind of a support bracket? Post a pic of it please. Thanks to all.

:arrow: Update: I have been posting my progress on my Howard Rotovator. My Howards gearbox is NOT like others. I have square gear box with a 1:1 gear ratio. I do require the Hub City reducer/reverser to make it work. It does have the IH Fast Hitch. The other Howard L or S-28 have round gearboxs with a ring and pinon gear for reduction. They DO NOT require/can not use a Hub City reducer/reverser when connected to that implement.
Last edited by Redcub on Fri May 27, 2011 10:25 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Took apart my Hub City model 22 reducer/reverser

Postby Redcub » Thu May 26, 2011 1:50 am

Looking at page F-10 of the Hub City catalog, it appears that the Model 22 with the 2.53:1 gear ratio ( 43 teeth to 17 teeth ) with 1750 PTO in gives an out PTO RPM of 692. I wonder if that would cause damage to your 540 RPM rated mower, tiller, flail, :?: ice cream maker :lol:, etc. Would it make your mower vibrate so bad that the wear and tear is not worth it? Or maybe even hurt someone? Yikes!
What about just running the Cub engine a little slower, or would that take away to much horsepower to effectivly operate the implement?

I'd like some advice please, if you would all be so kind to chime in.

PS. My uncle knew a guy back in the 1950's that got wrapped up in a PTO and was hurt "below the waist". He could no longer, uhhh, perform certain duites. :sick: :big sick: Then his wife left him.
Lets be careful out there and practise PTO safety. The Hub City web site has a good section on PTO safety.
Next time you are out here in the Pacific NW see us at
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Re: Took apart my Hub City model 22 reducer/reverser

Postby Bigdog » Thu May 26, 2011 6:42 am

55redcub - an excellent presentation of the fine points of the Hub City reducer! You must really enjoy the research!
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Re: Took apart my Hub City model 22 reducer/reverser

Postby Bill Hudson » Thu May 26, 2011 7:14 am

Bigdog wrote:55redcub - an excellent presentation of the fine points of the Hub City reducer! You must really enjoy the research!


Yes, and I don't have a reducer/reverser. I read it top-to-bottom and was impressed with the thoroughness of your research and the well done presentation.

Bill
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Re: Took apart my Hub City model 22 reducer/reverser

Postby outdoors4evr » Thu May 26, 2011 10:23 am

Was there a different model (or ratio) used for the numbered series?

<Stupid Question Warning> :?:
Also, I am curious if it mounts to anything. What keeps it from rotating around the shaft under heavy loads? Does it get chained down in some way or rest against something else to handle the torque?
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Re: Took apart my Hub City model 22 reducer/reverser

Postby Redcub » Thu May 26, 2011 11:12 am

I forgot to mention that the older style of the Model 22 used a P/N of 02-20-01101-022. I am going to call Hub City for a parts diagrams, and parts list.
Thanks for the complements Gents :D
Enjoy research, uhhh... sometimes like this project, yes. Not good at it, just learning to better navigate around this site better. :lol:

I am not familar with any other PTO rotation directions other than the Cub C-C/W, Cub Cadet C-C/W, and the A (C/W) and that is only because members have told me so here. Did all other IH model have a PTO that was C/W? Which ones turn engine RPM? Which ones turn 540? Did any have a two speed PTO? Sorry I can't even pretend to know that one.

Mounting? Hub City sells a bracket. the P/N is in the first post and in the catalog. I had the same question. I think that is why my PTO is bent now. I'd like to see some pics of mounts our members use with their Hub City unit.

Of course, all of this still does not address the fact that you go down and buy a new mower from the local tractor place and it has a 3-point hitch, while your old Ford tractor has a 2-point, your A has a draw bar, the Cub has Fast Hitch, and your Cub Cadet has a ball hitch that uncle Frank welded on it. :censored: :lol:
Next time you are out here in the Pacific NW see us at
The Great Oregon Steam Up in Brooks Ore, along Interstate-5 just North of Salem
http://www.antiquepowerland.com Held the last weekend of July, and 1st weekend of August
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Re: Took apart my Hub City model 22 reducer/reverser

Postby Steve K. CALIF » Thu May 26, 2011 12:12 pm

Ahhh, this makes my head hurt! Nice summation of the Hub City Model 22 box. There are a couple of items I would like to address for clarification to some of these points listed. 1. Hub City offers the Model 22 in various configurations, just that they have long discontinued the Cub special box and the necessary special parts. 2. The Cub unit has an intergral input shaft to accomodate the 31/32"-10 spline input for the cub P.T.O. shaft. 3. The Cub unit has an intergral output shaft to realize the 1-3/8"-6 spline output shaft extension. 4. If gears were available, one would still need to accomodate the special shafts in/out for the Cub. 5. The Hub City California plant is basically a warehouse that also does assemble basic units. It is best to deal directly with Hub in Aberdeen, SD, main plant. 6. The Model 230 is a completely different unit and would be even more difficult to make work. 7. I had posted some time ago that perhaps someone could take a standard Model 22 with an acceptable ratio and modify the input and output shafts as needed for the Cub. All this would take would be money and time.8. Would need to use Hub City basic Model 22, a # 0332-00340 31/32"-10 spline sleeve for the input, a 1-3/8" shaft for the output, make a metal mounting bracket for unit. Machine and assemble as needed. Money and time and expertise. Overall, a nice presentation by 55redcub. Thanks for you time on this, Steve K. Calif.
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Re: Took apart my Hub City model 22 reducer/reverser

Postby Jim Becker » Thu May 26, 2011 1:48 pm

I'll add a bit as well. As far as I know, Hub City never had gears for the model 22 with a ratio of 2.78 to 1. (What are your tooth counts?) The speed reducers for the Cub had a 2.53 to 1 ratio (17 teeth driving 43 teeth). My lists show 4 different versions of this thing for IH tractors.

22CU (02-20-01101) speed reducer for the offset models, steel mounting bracket bolted to top of transmission housing.
22IH (02-20-01301) speed reducer for offset models and Cub Cadet with high speed PTO (whatever that is), cast mounting bracket bolted over PTO shaft.
22LB (02-20-01302) speed reducer for numbered Lo-Boys, cast mounting bracket (differrent from cast bracket of 22IH).
2211IH (02-20-01401) direction changer for Cub Cadet, cast mounting bracket, identical to unit 22IH except for 1 to 1 gear ratio (30 teeth both gears).

Whether the fill plug could be used as a level plug depended on what angle the unit was mounted at. It called for 1/2 pint of 90 weight.

Ever since there have been ASAE standards for PTOs, IH has followed the standards. As far as I know, the Cub variants (and some high clearance models where the height was wrong) were the only models that were exceptions to the standards. The standards always called for CW rotation at about 540 rpm. A later standard was added for higher horsepower applications that ran 1,000 rpm. Some later models had provisions for both 540 and 1,000 rpm shafts. The 1,000 rpm shaft is also bigger and has more splines than a 540 shaft. Early ASAE standards called for a 1-1/8 shaft for lower horsepower and 1-3/8 for higher. This was later changed to 1-3/8 across the board. You can still find early letter series tractors with 1-1/8 shafts.
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Re: Took apart my Hub City model 22 reducer/reverser

Postby Redcub » Thu May 26, 2011 4:03 pm

Yeah I knew I would make somebody's head hurt with all this. Sorry Steve :sick: . This is my first attempt at putting all this Hub City stuff together. I had a heck of a time reading all the old posts and wanted to get this all straight. Thanks for your reply. Old posts made it sound like California had a factory.

Jim Becker: The 2.78;1 ratio information came from Steve K Calif, posted on Wednesday, April 2nd, 2008 at 9:06 AM, in a post labeled "Hub City reducer".
I didn't know about it either. Steve, if that is in error, please let me know.

I just got off the phone with South Dakota. Lee Zacker in Customer Service (1-800-482-2489) said 02-20-01101-022 is a good number. He dug up the drawings and emailed them to me. Rudi has been sent copies of everything I have. He said local dealers have the main seal in stock and local bearing houses have the bearings. No problem. Lee mentioned that the model 22 is the closest thing made today that would equal the old units.

Parts List:
Image

I went out and did a tooth count. 17 and 43. Thats 2:53:1
Next time you are out here in the Pacific NW see us at
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Re: Took apart my Hub City model 22 reducer/reverser

Postby Steve K. CALIF » Fri May 27, 2011 12:02 am

55redcub, I don't see my post you are referring to on April 2nd, 2008 regarding the 2.78:1ratio. If I said it, I was probably on drugs and now I am confused. If you spoke to Lee at Hub City, you got one of the good guys. He is correct in that the 02-20-01101-022 is a good number...JUST THAT IT IS OBSOLETE! Yes, many of the parts to make the reducer are standard parts for the makeup of several of the Model 22 units. You will not, however, be able to get the replacement special gears for the Cub unit.
They could possibly be special ordered and made by hub city, but the cost would be prohibitive. One might take your existing gears to a real bearing/power transmission supply house (Applied Ind. Tech., Motion Ind., Kaman Industrial) and have them ordered and then machined from a gear companys standard gears (if they match up in pitch, PA, etc.) Takes mostly money and time to do so. Keep in mind the rpm of the tractors engine is not the electric motor speed of 1750 rpm that is commonly used by companies like Hub City for engineering. Likely the Cubs speed is around 1600 rpm?? Would make the 2.53:1 closer to the desired 540 rpm, but, still faster. Maybe about 600?? You did get the Hub City Catalog page regarding the reducer that I sent to you? Keep at it, but as of now, I am finished with this thread. Steve K.
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Re: Took apart my Hub City model 22 reducer/reverser

Postby Redcub » Fri May 27, 2011 12:37 am

He is correct in that the 02-20-01101-022 is a good number...JUST THAT IT IS OBSOLETE! Yes, many of the parts to make the reducer are standard parts for the makeup of several of the Model 22 units. You will not, however, be able to get the replacement special gears for the Cub unit.


Yes, Lee said they stopped support in about 2006. I am going to ask my local dealer for a price on the new style Model 22 and post it here.
Cheers!
Next time you are out here in the Pacific NW see us at
The Great Oregon Steam Up in Brooks Ore, along Interstate-5 just North of Salem
http://www.antiquepowerland.com Held the last weekend of July, and 1st weekend of August
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Tractors Owned: Cub'less right now. Howard CD6 Despeeder, Howard L&S-28 Rotovator, Front end loader, Hub City PTO clockwise converter/rpm reducer, Cub tach, Cub Hobbs meter, Donaldson pre-cleaner. Building my Cub "hope chest" so i can put stuff on one some time soon.
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