Back to head scratching about vineyard cultivation

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Re: Back to head scratching about vineyard cultivation

Postby DickB » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:16 am

gitractorman wrote:Dick,
HWil has a good idea. Using the existing tool bars for the cultivators, you can extend the bar out to one side, far enough to get past your wider wheel spacing. Then you can add a spade or tooth (or two) out there to do your cultivating. Nice, simple application, and should have plenty of strength. You may even be able to leave the sickle mower attached, but I'd have to look closely at where the tool bars come back and where the sickle mower sticks up. It would be close, but worth trying out. Worst case, you can just remove the cutter bar (as you were thinking about originally) and leave the mower mount hooked up.

Give it a try and let us know how you make out. Everyone loves pictures too.



Seems as if I clicked on the wrong quote in my previous message. Sorry! But Gitractorman and HWil are on to it, and I thank them. Now, to figure out what I've got, and what I need, and where to go for what is needed...These are the next steps. Ahhh, but I'm racing the weather in putting up sheep fencing! So, guess I'll take a "break" from back-breaking work and check out the cultivator collection here. I am fairly sure I'll need to find a long toolbar....

On vineyards.... I'm a beginning amateur at it. Going step by step, and at a very small scale: 80 vines total and I'll not expand beyond that. What's happened here in New England started out in Minnesota where some folks developed a hybrid American grape vine that can withstand the northern US climate and produce wine-quality grapes. "Marquette" is the primary variety that I've planted. A fellow up in Vermont grows them in commercial quantities and sells the wine that he makes. I bought a bottle and said " If I could grow that, make that, I'd not visit a wine shop." (BTW, info from the vine supplier is: 1 vine = .5 gal., maybe, & 1 gal. = 5 bottles -- so I hope for 2 bottles/vine.) These vines are ending Year 3 and had a controlled small number of grape clusters that I planed to make into wine...right about now. But someone (birds, deer, bear, raccoons??) completely cleaned me out as I awaited ripeness. :oops: Then there's a newer variety, just planted, called "Petite Pearl." So it is a ongoing deal, although probably not of a quality to compete with Europe or California. I figured the Cub could help on cultivation, and HWil and Gitractorman just perked me up.

Thanks to all. Now, to check out that L to R toolbar.

Cheers, Dick
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Re: Back to head scratching about vineyard cultivation

Postby DickB » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:19 am

gitractorman wrote:Dick,
HWil has a good idea. Using the existing tool bars for the cultivators, you can extend the bar out to one side, far enough to get past your wider wheel spacing. Then you can add a spade or tooth (or two) out there to do your cultivating. Nice, simple application, and should have plenty of strength. You may even be able to leave the sickle mower attached, but I'd have to look closely at where the tool bars come back and where the sickle mower sticks up. It would be close, but worth trying out. Worst case, you can just remove the cutter bar (as you were thinking about originally) and leave the mower mount hooked up.

Give it a try and let us know how you make out. Everyone loves pictures too.



Seems as if I clicked on the wrong quote in my previous message. Sorry! But Gitractorman and HWil are on to it, and I thank them. Now, to figure out what I've got, and what I need, and where to go for what is needed...These are the next steps. Ahhh, but I'm racing the weather in putting up sheep fencing! So, guess I'll take a "break" from back-breaking work and check out the cultivator collection here. I am fairly sure I'll need to find a long toolbar....

On vineyards.... I'm a beginning amateur at it. Going step by step, and at a very small scale: 80 vines total and I'll not expand beyond that. What's happened here in New England started out in Minnesota where some folks developed a hybrid American grape vine that can withstand the northern US climate and produce wine-quality grapes. "Marquette" is the primary variety that I've planted. A fellow up in Vermont grows them in commercial quantities and sells the wine that he makes. I bought a bottle and said " If I could grow that, make that, I'd not visit a wine shop." (BTW, info from the vine supplier is: 1 vine = .5 gal., maybe, & 1 gal. = 5 bottles -- so I hope for 2 bottles/vine.) These vines are ending Year 3 and had a controlled small number of grape clusters that I planed to make into wine...right about now. But someone (birds, deer, bear, raccoons??) completely cleaned me out as I awaited ripeness. :oops: Then there's a newer variety, just planted, called "Petite Pearl." So it is a ongoing deal, although probably not of a quality to compete with Europe or California. I figured the Cub could help on cultivation, and HWil and Gitractorman just perked me up.

Thanks to all. Now, to check out that L to R toolbar.

Cheers, Dick
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Re: Back to head scratching about vineyard cultivation

Postby HWil » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:02 am

Yup, the steel shop. h
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Re: Back to head scratching about vineyard cultivation

Postby DickB » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:00 pm

Here are 2 photos (somehow I got 2 of the first photo: go figure!) that might better explain what I think has been talked about. Extending the straight front R cultivator toolbar out to about 24" from the cutivator's connection point. This looks like it would be about the right distance out. I used a grey plastic pipe to simluate the blue toolbar of the greater dimension. The 2nd photo shows the toolbar attaching to both L and R points on the front cultivator. In terms of drag at the end of the longer toolbar I show just one cultivator. That's all that I think I would use. Comments? Thoughts? -- Dick

extending front R toolbar 1.JPG
extending front R toolbar 1.JPG
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Re: Back to head scratching about vineyard cultivation

Postby HWil » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:05 pm

Looks about right. How far under the rows do you have to reach? Would returning on the other side of the row allow you to halve the extension? Not that I think you would have to. h
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Re: Back to head scratching about vineyard cultivation

Postby Jim Becker » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:39 pm

This picture is pretty small, but hopefully you can sort of see it. (There has to be a bigger copy somewhere on this site.) This is an A-452 vegetable cultivator. You can see that there are 2 tool bars tied together with several braces. The outermost braces are 2 feet outboard of where the cultivator attaches to the mounting frames. The rear bar (the longer) extends about 15 inches past the outermost braces. Obviously, if you have a single bar and/or extend it farther out, it will not be as strong. I still don't think you will have any problems with bending/breaking components, especially considering you will be going pretty slowly.
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Re: Back to head scratching about vineyard cultivation

Postby Gerry Powell » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:12 pm

Using the vegetable cultivator, the forces on the tractor mounting are equal and distributed along the toolbars on both sides of the tractor, and tying the two toolbars together helps distribute the forces. With the proposed scheme, only one cultivator will be in the ground and extended out 2', which will cause some great torque on the right mounting bolster. I predict it will crack or break the bolster mount when you get the cultivator bogged down. If I wanted to try this with my tractor, I'd brace the end of the toolbar back to the mounting holes on the final drive.
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Re: Back to head scratching about vineyard cultivation

Postby DickB » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:53 am

Jim -- Thanks for pix. Gerry -- Thanks for comments and...just where exactly would you brace to? And how?

It seems to me that the rig shown in the photo Jim sent up has cross arms that go back to a 2nd bar and that's a form of bracing. This bracing would limit deflection in the horizontal plane. Perhaps that's what Gerry wants.

My continuing head scratching (what hair is left on the head ain't worth worring about anyhow...), I was wondering about something simple. Like leaving the straight toolbar "as is" (rod extending to R, holder to L), slilpping a hollow steel tube over the rod and securing it with tightening bolts. Then at the end of the steel tube slipping into it the other straight toobar (from the L side of the tractor) and then there would be a tool holder right where I want it. Bracing of this rig? Could rod some sort of an angled steel tube backward to the curved toobar's end. To get more bracing I'd need to devise a way to connect more tubing from the R cultivator's toolbar to the L cultivator -- But by then I'd not have a way to easily attach to the L cultivator. So...more head scratching!

I'm encouraged by the advise offered, and feel now that there's a solution out there. Thinking it mostly through now will be a head start for the springtime.

Thanks, Dick
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Re: Back to head scratching about vineyard cultivation

Postby gitractorman » Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:22 am

If you purchased a piece of square stock (same dimensions, I think 1 1/4" square) like the tool bar, yet long enough to lay across the or underneath both the left and right tool bar, you could secure it to both the left and right tool bars, leaving it stick out further to the right, past the wheels. Then you can use your existing tool bar clamps to attach your cultivating points to that "new" extended tool bar.

The bar stock would probably have to be somewhere around 6-feet long, to be able to reach all the way under the belly of the tractor to the left side tool bar. But, once attached, it would raise up and down with the tool bars. Then you just have to attach your cultivator part out to the right side. You would have plenty of lateral and vertical strength, and something very simple to put on/ take off, whenever you need it. Basically, no fabrication skills needed, just clamp it all together and go.
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Re: Back to head scratching about vineyard cultivation

Postby Jim Becker » Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:00 am

This is essentially what I have, except my tool bars are longer and there is an additional brace outboard of the bar that supports both tool bars.
Image

I'm not sure I followed gitractorman's description, but if so I think he is suggesting something similar to the way the fertilizer applicator is clamped in illustration 19, except a single bar that reaches across and clamps to both sides.
Image

Another possibility is to find a pair of tool bar extensions from a planter and attach 2 tool bars to them. See item 6 in this drawing.
Image

In general, the factory set-ups were strong enough to not break when a single tool hit a hard obstruction unless you were going exceptionally fast. That is why I don't think you will have a problem with bending or breaking things if you go slowly. After all, you aren't trying to cover 100 acres. If you were, I would probably make some different suggestions. If you end up with a set-up that has 2 tool bars, I would probably try putting your working tools on the front one. It will give you a little more side to side maneuverability by steering. In any case, you will probably find that you need front wheel weights because of side draft from the extended tool bar.
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Re: Back to head scratching about vineyard cultivation

Postby HWil » Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:17 pm

I believe the bar stock is 1 3/8" sq. You may need a 3 way clamp to attach the cultivator shank to the bar stock.....h
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Re: Back to head scratching about vineyard cultivation

Postby DickB » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:51 pm

JIm, that rig you've got sure is enticing to me..if it would do what I would like it to do. Have you any idea what they go ($$) for nowadays? How far to one side can you get if you shift the square bar to the R side but still tie in of the L? Thanks for all the images. -- dick
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Re: Back to head scratching about vineyard cultivation

Postby Jim Becker » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:15 pm

The vegetable cultivator is fairly rare. Every so often somebody posts to this web site about having one, but infrequently. Prices can be all over the place, but not likely to be cheap.

The regular tool bars for the Cub-252 are 62" long. If slid to one side it may stick a foot or so beyond your rear tires, depending on where the tires are set. My tool bars are longer and stick out farther as they are from the larger A-452 cultivator.

I think you can get the same results by getting a square bar and clamping it as you illustrated in your earlier post.

Just to add some more confusion, here are some more pictures of a grape hoe.
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Re: Back to head scratching about vineyard cultivation

Postby Gerry Powell » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:50 pm

I ginned up a quick pic to show you what I think you should do. With the standard drawbar in the reverse position like used for the moldboard plow, but fix it, don't have it floating. Brace your cultivator tool back to the drawbar nearest to the right tire as you can get.
Hopefully this will keep from breaking something. I've seen more than one universal lift broken, and that was from using standard factory setups. Remember the universal lift was designed for pulling loads, not twisting loads cantilevered way out past the wheel base. If you get bogged down with your cultivator tool, somethings got to give, either your tool, the universal lift, the tires spin. Doesn't really matter how fast you'll be going, those 10 horses ain't goin' to be denied.
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Re: Back to head scratching about vineyard cultivation

Postby DickB » Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:46 am

That grape hoe, Jim, looks like it might do the same thing that the Green machine does, but without hydraulics. Looks to me that it doesn't reach far enough out for my needs. And I think it would take a man-and-a-half to run the tractor and hang on/manage that hoe at the same time. Woah.

Thanks, Gerry for you sketch. I see what you are up to.

BTW, for what it is worth, Jim correctly estimates Cub speed. If/when I get situated with something that works for me, I'll only be doing 6' of earth at a time -- going from one grape vine trunk to another. Then pulling out moving in or out a bit and redoing the back-n-forth bit. The entire area, before planting, was cultivated with the Cub many many times to get out rocks and roots. And I then rototilled the swath many times. Now with the vines planted, and trellis posts in place and wires running the entire length, getting in/out for cultivation is a meticulous, touchy operation. And, of course, being New England, there's always a chance of a new crop of rocks coming up....

Don't kow what I'll come up with, but do have an eye out for something like Jim has (the extended 2-bar cultivator) or what I had proposed -- perhaps with a brace on a hinge going back to the tractor as Gerry showed or as Jim's grape hoe design shows.

Best regards to all, Dick
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