Back Fire!!

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Re: Back Fire!!

Postby CPIII » Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:23 pm

Well thanks to the B-yard and Jim the Captain is running as good as ever :{_}: :{_}: .....learned something i will not foget for a while...Thanks to everyone who posted for their suggestions!! It was sort of depressing spending all that time on rebuilding a mower and you go to start the tractor that is going to power it ....and you think you have even more work ahead.....but the solution was simple ...just had to ask the right people.

Thanks again!! :big afro:
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Re: Back Fire!!

Postby Rudi » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:51 pm

Winfield Dave wrote:Cub tip of the week - "An Alternative Take on Finding TDC When Timing A Cub"
http://farmallcub.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17676&p=482422#p482422


Putting this into a KISS perspective, I agree with Gary. I had fits trying to figure out why Granny would not start. I knew I had timed it correctly or so I thought. My chum Troy was over giving me a hand along with consultations with me Cub Guru in Kinderhook :D we timed Granny properly - and yes I was out of time. Also the valve lash was all wrong - needed to be addressed. Now she has good spark. So yeah, I definitely recommend Gary's method - it works for me. Removing the valve cover and gasket is no big deal, pretty easy way to solve a problem that stumps many of our members especially those who are learning mechanics.
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Re: Back Fire!!

Postby Barnyard » Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:59 pm

I have to agree with the others. Gary knows his tractors and always has sound advice. I copied his technique to the How To forum Ignition/Electrical section so it will be easy to find in the future.
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Re: Back Fire!!

Postby Winfield Dave » Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:39 am

Barnyard wrote:I copied his technique to the How To forum Ignition/Electrical section so it will be easy to find in the future.
Thanks Bill...I had to search a while to be able to post it.
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Re: Back Fire!!

Postby lazyuniondriver » Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:50 am

Sorry gentlemen, I can't jump on the wagon and advocate side cover removal and its associated labor and material expense when troubleshooting or timing an engine.

Locating TDC on number one's compression stroke by removing the number one sparkplug is both fast and accurate with no additional expense.
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Re: Back Fire!!

Postby Scrivet » Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:35 am

lazyuniondriver wrote:Sorry gentlemen, I can't jump on the wagon and advocate side cover removal........
That's why they have both chocolate and vanilla ice cream.
lazyuniondriver wrote:.......and its associated labor and material expense when troubleshooting or timing an engine.
Don't understand labor comment, it's two small bolts, you're taking out one big bolt (spark plug) and having to unhook and rehook the spark plug wire. As for expense it is not necessary to replace the gasket or crush washers every time you remove the cover. If it hasn't been off for a really long while, the gasket may get damaged in removal. If so, it was time to replace it anyway.
lazyuniondriver wrote:Locating TDC on number one's compression stroke by removing the number one sparkplug is both fast and accurate with no additional expense.
If it's fast and accurate why do so many have difficulty with it? My opinion is that most people are visual and holding your thumb over the spark plug hole is a little bit of the unknown. You can't see the piston at TDC. So they're not really sure it's there. Someone that has worked on lots of engines KNOWS it's there but the infrequent, backyard, shade tree, or whatever description mechanic has that little doubt in their mind that they got it right. SEEING the valves gives them the confidence. As I started this; that's why they have chocolate and vanilla. People have different opinions.
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Re: Back Fire!!

Postby Barnyard » Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:47 am

Thanks Scrivet, as Gary said in his post;
It's easy & totally fool proof.

Being a person who has attended a lot of CubFests, I have witnessed a lot of newer members have difficulty finding TDC by using the #1 piston. I have that problem myself on occasion. This is especially true if there is weak compression in that cylinder.

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Re: Back Fire!!

Postby Jim Becker » Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:15 am

Scrivet wrote:You can't see the piston at TDC. So they're not really sure it's there.

You don't need to see the piston. That is what the notch in the pulley is for. With either method, you still need to, as Gary said in his explanation:
I stop at that point & align the timing mark.

Anybody can use whatever method they are comfortable with, but I would never use the valve movement method unless the tappet cover was already off. I wouldn't remove the cover just to see the valves move.

For anyone still having difficulties with the 3 methods that have already been given in one thread or another, here are 2 more:

1) Remove spark plug #1, install the other 3. Put the crank in and turn the engine slowly until you identify 3 half turns that turn hard and 1 half turn that turns easy. At the end of the easy half turn, stop with the pulley notch at the pointer.

2) Use the CPIII method. Ignore everything and turn the crank until the pulley notch is at the pointer. You have a 50/50 chance this is #1 TDC. If you are lucky like CP usually is, everything will be fine. If you are unlucky like CP was this time, the engine will backfire rather than run. Pull the cap, take the rotor out, give it a half turn, put it and the cap back on. Done. No finger in the spark plug hole, no tappet cover to remove.
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Re: Back Fire!!

Postby CPIII » Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:17 am

Jim.......Just to clarify....I am not sure how my name got associated with just line up the mark and hope you are on a compression stroke....what i was referring to was putting the rotor cover back on the mag is where I got lucky as I didn't realize that there was a 2:1 relationship between the rotor and the shaft of the mag itself. I ALWAYS remove the #1 plug and crank till I feel compression and then line up the mark.
Removing the plug is a breeze and you insure that you are on a compression stroke.
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Re: Back Fire!!

Postby lazyuniondriver » Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:17 pm

CPIII

I believe you posted a very interesting topic, especially since you provided a detailed outline of what you had done prior to posting. (You had come so close to troubleshooting the problem on your own too).

Of course the thread lead to plenty of productive discussion and as can happen with any topic, not everyone was in unanimous agreement of the best way of finding TDC of # 1 cylinder's compression stroke.

As the thread progressed to the end, I would think everyone should be satisfied with the chocolate / vanilla scenario, agreeing to choose the method you are most comfortable understanding and performing.

Jumping to the other side of the fence, one could not dispute for training or technical education purposes, removing the side tappet cover opens the window to the world of the Otto cycle allowing one to observe visually the four stages from beginning to end on all 4 cylinders of the C60 engine.
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Re: Back Fire!!

Postby Jim Becker » Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:11 pm

CPIII wrote:Jim.......Just to clarify....I am not sure how my name got associated with just line up the mark and hope you are on a compression stroke....what i was referring to was putting the rotor cover back on the mag is where I got lucky as I didn't realize that there was a 2:1 relationship between the rotor and the shaft of the mag itself. I ALWAYS remove the #1 plug and crank till I feel compression and then line up the mark.
Removing the plug is a breeze and you insure that you are on a compression stroke.

It isn't that you intentionally use that method. I picked on you because you inadvertantly ended up at the end of part 1 of that method after removing/replacing the rotor. The fix was to do part 2 of the method.
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