Starter Problem

Farmall Cub Forum -- Questions and answers to all of your Cub related issues.

Moderator: Team Cub

Forum rules
Notice: For sale and wanted posts are not allowed in this forum. Please use our free classifieds or one of our site sponsors for your tractor and parts needs.

Starter Problem

Postby kirkcudbright » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:54 pm

When it rains, it pours. Another problem.

1950 Cub, 6v System

Last night, I am running the tractor for a few minutes. Everything is good. Shut it off and go to start it again - nothing happens.

The starter acts like it is getting no juice. It doesn't turn nor act like it wants to turn. Not a speck of movement.

I double check connections at battery and starter - no change.

I check battery voltage, and it is 6.3v - not great, but okay. I keep it on a float charger, and that is normally adequate. While I'm at it, I pop open the cells, and none are low.

I check voltage between battery and the starter - 6.3v.

I put the tractor in high gear and rock it back and forth - in an attempt to move the transmission a bit. No change.

I pull the starter out and see that it turns freely - I've never looked inside of one, and I don't know what is good or bad - but nothing is obviously broken or disconnected. The copper contact looks clean.

I try to run it with jumper cables directly from the 6v battery - nothing happens.

Today, I take it to a starter shop. The guy take off the outer band and looks inside. He says it seems to look decent. He jumps it from a (12v) battery, and it works fine. He says it seems okay from a quick inspection. When I say it wouldn't jump from my 6 volt battery, he seems skeptical. He tells me to double check my connections.

I take it home and try to jump it from 6v again - nothing.

I suddenly wonder if it is intermittent or if I am jumping it incorrectly. So I try to jump it with 12v from the truck - it works. Immediately try with 6v battery again - nothing. Double-check battery voltage - still 6.3v (same as it normally is).

Bottom line...
Works fine when connected to 12v battery.
Does nothing when connected to 6v battery (that it has been using regularly).

Ideas?
kirkcudbright
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:22 pm
Zip Code: 63118

Re: Starter Problem

Postby clodhopper » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:59 pm

Are you using the same (6V) battery every time? have the meter attached when you test the starter, and report back the voltage under starter load...
I'll be drinking that free bubble up, and eatin that rainbow stew.
http://www.builditnc.com
User avatar
clodhopper
501 Club
501 Club
 
Posts: 724
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 8:20 pm
Zip Code: 27526
Tractors Owned: 1950 Cub Demo
1978 Cub Cadet 1650
cub 193 plow
cub 174 planter
cub sidedresser
cub 144 cultivator
cadet 50a deck
60A grader blade
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Starter Problem

Postby jlmason81 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:59 pm

Where did you hook the jumper cables at on the tractor side? Sure sounds like a ground issue. Have you checked your ground cable that is connected to the battery box?
User avatar
jlmason81
Cub Star
Cub Star
 
Posts: 131
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:43 pm
Location: Forney, Texas
Zip Code: 75126
eBay ID: jlmason81
Tractors Owned: 1949 Farmall Cub High Crop w/ Cultivators
1955 International Cub Lo-Boy w/ Fast-Hitch
1975 International Cub w/ IH 1000 Loader & Fast-Hitch
1976 International Cub w/ IH 54A Blade
IH #10 Utility Trailer

Re: Starter Problem

Postby lazyuniondriver » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:01 pm

When it was bench tested was the manual switch connected to the starter rod removed? Have those contacts inside that switch housing been serviced or examined?
"HAVE ALL YOUR DELIVERIES MADE BY UNION DRIVERS"
Image
lazyuniondriver
Cub Star!!
Cub Star!!
 
Posts: 438
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:37 am
Location: Southern Suburbs of Cleveland, Ohio
Zip Code: 44134
Tractors Owned: 1949 & 1951 Farmall Cubs

Several Snapper Garden Tractors
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Starter Problem

Postby kirkcudbright » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:33 pm

jlmason81 wrote:Where did you hook the jumper cables at on the tractor side? Sure sounds like a ground issue. Have you checked your ground cable that is connected to the battery box?


I checked for that, but you may want to double-check my methodology.

Starter completely removed from tractor
Positive battery terminal to exposed metal of starter
Negative battery terminal to copper contact on starter

Also, 6.3 volts from battery negative to battery positive and 6.3 volts from battery negative to tractor body (positive ground).
kirkcudbright
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:22 pm
Zip Code: 63118

Re: Starter Problem

Postby kirkcudbright » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:35 pm

lazyuniondriver wrote:When it was bench tested was the manual switch connected to the starter rod removed? Have those contacts inside that switch housing been serviced or examined?


When tested, the contacts were removed and bypassed. Under 12v this works. Under 6v, it does not.

I did not put a meter on them, but a visual inspection showed clean contacts and what looked like a good physical connection when the lever was pushed.
kirkcudbright
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:22 pm
Zip Code: 63118

Re: Starter Problem

Postby kirkcudbright » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:39 pm

clodhopper wrote:Are you using the same (6V) battery every time? have the meter attached when you test the starter, and report back the voltage under starter load...


I did use the same battery each time, and I am starting to wonder about it. I don't know how old it is, and I don't know how it acts under a load.

I will have to double-check this over the weekend.
kirkcudbright
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:22 pm
Zip Code: 63118

Re: Starter Problem

Postby danovercash » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:37 pm

6.3v is good for a fully charged battery. It should not fall under 4.5v when cranking. If it does battery is not holding charge. Been cranking mine with 6v for 49 years.
"It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows." -Epictetus

252646 & 221525. 195897 (Gone but not forgotten!)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dansfarmallcub/
danovercash
10+ Years
10+ Years
 
Posts: 2895
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2003 8:48 pm
Location: NC, Kannapolis
Zip Code: 28081
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Starter Problem

Postby FCUBMAN » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:06 pm

Could be a fine film on the commutator, try cleaning it. Weak brush springs might do it, too.
"Remember, I'm pulling for you - we're all in this together!"
Quoted from Red Green of Possum Lodge

When you get older, lack of pep is often mistaken for patience.

(1956 and 1948 Cubs)
User avatar
FCUBMAN
5+ Years
5+ Years
 
Posts: 441
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:35 am
Location: CT, Northern
Zip Code: 00000
Tractors Owned: 2 Cubs
1 Simplicity
1 Craftsman
1 Farmall 130 with loader
1 Tiger

Re: Starter Problem

Postby Eugene » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:41 pm

Battery problem or cable or grounding problem.

Voltage drop test the battery. Multimeter (DC Volts) on each battery terminal. Check voltage. Engage starter checking battery voltage. See Danovercash's earlier post.

Clean up all connections. Clean - not check.
I have an excuse. CRS.
Eugene
Team Cub Mentor
Team Cub Mentor
 
Posts: 12635
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: Mo. Linn
Zip Code: 65051
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Starter Problem

Postby kirkcudbright » Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:30 am

After last night's replies, I felt pretty comfortable the battery was going to fail a load test. Today, I took it in, and it tested good for voltage and under a load.

Removed from tractor and jumped with 12v battery, it works.
Removed from tractor and jumped in same way with 6v battery, and it doesn't do a thing.
When jumping it, the connections are to the case and to the copper contact on top.

Monday, I am taking it back to the starter guy.

Will post what he finds this week.
kirkcudbright
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:22 pm
Zip Code: 63118

Re: Starter Problem

Postby Scrivet » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:06 am

kirkcudbright wrote:.....Removed from tractor and jumped with 12v battery, it works.
Removed from tractor and jumped in same way with 6v battery, and it doesn't do a thing.
......

And the size/gauge wire of the jumper cables is???????

1. Keep in mind 6V likes heavier wires. 12V will work great on smaller size wires which is one of the reasons for the change all those many years ago. Less copper in the wire means less expensive.

2. Most jumper cables are longer than the normal battery to starter cable. Makes getting enough 6V AMPS through the smaller wire even tougher.

3. You are not getting much contact area between the clamps and the starter nub and the clamp and the starter case. Usually a couple pointed teeth in the clamp. So even smaller spot for 6V AMPS to get through.

Your "test" with the jumper cables could very well be complicating diagnosing the problem by sending you in the wrong direction by thinking 12V works and 6V doesn't. If it'll spin on 12V it'll spin on 6V if you get enough AMPS to it.
As has already been suggested several times clean the connections.
Save the trouble of taking the starter back to the starter guy and spend the time removing, cleaning, and putting dielectric grease on every connection.
Remove both positive and negative cables from the battery and shine up the post and inside the terminal.
If you have replacement cable clamps take them loose and shine up the inside clamping portion and take a wire brush to the end of the cable.
Take a wire brush to the starter end of the cable until it shines on both sides.
Wire brush the starter lug till it shines.
Wire brush the other end of the positive cable, both sides, yep, till it shines!
Wire brush where it bolts to till it shines! Is it to the battery box? Then make sure the battery box is solid. Then take out one or two bolts that hold it to the tractor and make where they touch the box shine. Make the bolt shine.
Make the ears on the starter around the bolt holes shine.
Shine the flats around the bolt holes for the starter mount.
Start your cub and go for a drive.
Scrivet
5+ Years
5+ Years
 
Posts: 1524
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:51 pm
Location: MO, Potosi
Zip Code: 63664

Re: Starter Problem

Postby Eugene » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:23 am

I was planning on waiting for the results from the second trip to the starter repair shop before posting again.
Removed (starter) from tractor and jumped in same way with 6v battery, and it doesn't do a thing.
At a minimum you should at least get a hum and/or some vibration from the starter.

Starter good, battery good. Common denominator - battery cables - jumper cables.

Scrivet's and previous posts on cleaning up connections and checking condition of the battery/ground cables is valid. Battery cables do corrode inside the insulation.
I have an excuse. CRS.
Eugene
Team Cub Mentor
Team Cub Mentor
 
Posts: 12635
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: Mo. Linn
Zip Code: 65051
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Starter Problem

Postby kirkcudbright » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:22 pm

SOLVED

One of the field coil screws inside the starter had loosened.

Starter-guy tightened it up, and everything works fine now.

Thanks for all of the help.
kirkcudbright
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:22 pm
Zip Code: 63118

Re: Starter Problem

Postby clodhopper » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:42 pm

Glad you got the problem solved.
I'll be drinking that free bubble up, and eatin that rainbow stew.
http://www.builditnc.com
User avatar
clodhopper
501 Club
501 Club
 
Posts: 724
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 8:20 pm
Zip Code: 27526
Tractors Owned: 1950 Cub Demo
1978 Cub Cadet 1650
cub 193 plow
cub 174 planter
cub sidedresser
cub 144 cultivator
cadet 50a deck
60A grader blade
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Next

Return to Farmall Cub

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Glen and 4 guests