PTO help please

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PTO help please

Postby Johnny Lindqvist » Tue May 07, 2013 7:24 pm

So last weekend I put on the Woods 59" mower deck. I have to take it off and put it on to use any of my fast hitch attachments all summer but that is besides the point at the moment (need another tractor). Anyhow, Blades all sharpened, New belt (put it on at the end of last season), I wont say freshly greased but looking good. Upon my first time mowing the lawn I felt that the tractor was extremely sluggish when the PTO was enguaged and the mower was spinning. I thought that perhaps I had been imagining it and that it was just because I had been using the plow and disc and it seemed to be running so good. Tonight I was gonna mow the lawn again before the rain comes in. It hadn't been that long so I figured that I would be able to drop the deck down really low to keep ahead of it. As soon as I engaged the PTO I noticed it felt slugglish again. I got about 50' into my first round and the PTO tried to disengage and started grinding. I put my foot on the clutch and pulled the stick up and out. Normally when I engauge the PTO I have to feather the clutch in gear to get it in but this had never happened to me. It happened again and again. I thought maybe the belt was on way to tight so I raised the deck up but It just kept happening. I didn't even make it around the yard once and I decided to pack it up for the night. I brought her in and opened up the plug right behind the gear shifter box. It occured to me that in the year and a half owning the tractor I had never check the fluid in there. Honestly I don't even know what the level should be. Needless to say I think it's low. I could see the spline gear that engauges the PTO clearly. It looked lubricated enough but probably needs fluid. So question one; where should I be in regards to the level and could lack of oil be responsible for the sluggish performance? When looking at the spline gear that engauges the PTO it looked as though one teeth as an odd shape. I could not see the others from that angle. Perhaps this is where my problem lies but I can't tell if it's a chipped tooth or machined that way. So question 2,3,4,5, etc, etec and probably more importantly why did this happen and what do I need to do to fix it? Could it be as simple as the oil level? If not Is it a simple fix with easily accessible parts or a nightmare. Am I even looking for the problem in the right place?
Johnny Lindquist
1958 Fast Hitch Lo Boy with Woods 59CL-3 Mower Deck, L38 Disc Harrow, F194 Plow and L54 Blade
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Re: PTO help please

Postby Scrivet » Tue May 07, 2013 8:21 pm

Woods 59" will bog the cub down some or a lot depending on the condition of the tractor. Fluid will not be the cause, it doesn't take much to start with. There's a oil level plug on the left side of the transmission in front of the final drive. I think it's time to refer to the maintenance and lubrication section of the manual and do a thorough check of everything.

Your PTO disengaging and grinding is most likely the transmission shaft splines have rounded off. There's very little engagement between the collar that the lever moves and the transmission shaft and they do eventually wear the spline ends off to where the collar will no longer stay in place. Grinding the PTO when engaging contributes as well as just general use. Loosen the bolt that holds the guide for the PTO lever and swivel the whole bracket back just a bit out of its divot to give the lever a bit more travel and see if it stays engaged then. Don't let the lever go to far or the pin in the side of the bracket will fall out of its slot in the collar inside. That pin may be another cause if it gets worn the collar doesn't slide far enough forward.
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Re: PTO help please

Postby Hengy » Tue May 07, 2013 8:38 pm

Scrivet is on the right path with your issues. Does your tractor smoke? When was the last tune up you gave it, including valve adjustment? My cub Merlin will pull a 59 mower uphill cutting "lawn grass". I'll get a chance to try it out on field grass in a couple weeks.

On the PTO coming out of gear, I'm sure you will find the pin on the PTO engagement lever where it goes into the PTO collar is worn at least halfway through.... That will need to be changed. The reason it has worn is that the collar has been trying to disengage. This can be from a number of reasons on the shaft. Rounded off teeth on the shaft or collar. Could be that the front seal retainer of the tranny could be installed backwards and allowed the shaft to slide forward and not give full engagement of the splines.

Unfortunately, the only way to fix most of this is to split the tractor and inspect all the shaft and PTO parts.
Mike (Happy as a Lark in Allison Park, PA)
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Re: PTO help please

Postby Johnny Lindqvist » Wed May 08, 2013 6:41 am

So I haven't done a 500 hour lubrication. I will get on that. I was afraid you would say split the tractor which would be horrible timing. I'm going to try to move the PTO lever guide as suggested. I've never had the problem with the grinding before. Even when I feather the clutch to get it in it goes in smooth without and noise or resistance. I did plugs, caps and rotor a month ago. The wires were still like new. I adjusted points last fall. She was running great until this. I'll be getting back to you.
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Re: PTO help please

Postby Don McCombs » Wed May 08, 2013 7:23 am

As far as the transmission gear oil level is concerned, the transmission takes 3.5 PINTS. You have already found the fill plug. The level plug is located on the left side of the transmission case. It is the square head plug shown in this photo. Use Hy-Tran, 90w gear oil or 80-90w gear oil, your choice. If you change the gear lube, flush the case with kerosene or diesel prior to refilling.

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Re: PTO help please

Postby Johnny Lindqvist » Wed May 08, 2013 8:11 am

OK, I see level plug. I will have to get some Hy Tran. I tried to moved the lever guide and it moved a good amount. I turned enguaged the pto and it ran for a moment and then happened again. I'm going to make another attempt at it later today and probably pick up some Hy Tran and Kerosene. Do you have an pictures of what those gears will look like if I open up it up? Or pictures of what I will be replacing? Where can I get replacement parts of this sort? It looks as thought the tractor comes apart in two places? Would I be splitting it just in front of the shifter? Can I access anything by opening up the PTO to have a better look?
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Re: PTO help please

Postby danovercash » Wed May 08, 2013 8:13 am

Be sure to adjust mower deck so it is 1/4-1/2inch lower in front. Level or lower in back takes much more power to run.
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Re: PTO help please

Postby Eugene » Wed May 08, 2013 8:57 am

Johnny Lindqvist wrote: Where can I get replacement parts of this sort? Would I be splitting it just in front of the shifter? Can I access anything by opening up the PTO to have a better look?
PTO parts are available from TM Tractor Parts (link in the For Sale section of site) or local Case IH dealer.

In your parts manual, items normally needing replaced are items 14, and 15, clutch power take-off shifter and lever and shaft assy.

To access the PTO you only need to remove the plate on the rear of the differential, no need to split the tractor.

Search the site for PTO repairs. There have been several discussions on the topic, including some tips.
I have an excuse. CRS.
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Re: PTO help please

Postby pickerandsinger » Wed May 08, 2013 5:05 pm

Sounds very similar to the problem I had....As Eugene said check the how to post for rebuilding the PTO....It sounds intimidating but its not really bad at all...Be sure to check out the video on pulley removal..(.I think it was Big Dogs) before you tear into it...Got my parts from TM....Works great now.....Dave
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Re: PTO help please

Postby Johnny Lindqvist » Wed May 08, 2013 6:11 pm

Hey, getting back to you all. Thanks for all the info and good advice. Here is where I'm at. I got home today and afters asking myseld all day why does it seem like there is such a load on it. So I disconnected the belt from the mower to the pto. I engaged it with no problems at an idle. I took a piece of wood and firmly held it against the pully to simulate more load. With moderate load it worked fine when I pushed harder it would grind intermittently but nowhere near what it was doing. I adjusted the guide for lever so I would grab more and repeated the test successfully with no grinding. I could watch it engage and disengage through the fill hole with a flashlight. Things don't appear to be completely worn after two attempts I got it where I like it. I set my levels on the touch control again the. Engraved
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Re: PTO help please

Postby Johnny Lindqvist » Wed May 08, 2013 6:19 pm

Sorry, I adjusted the belt on the mower deck twice. Got it where I liked it. Set my levels on the touch control again and w engaged the pto with the deck up almost all the way. I slowly brought it down all the way and here was no grinding. I could not do a live test on it because it was pouring. Hopefully I can get her to pass that test and get the summer out of it and perhaps rebuild it in the fall or winter. Ill be checking lubrication over the weekend. I did stop off at a local dealer and get a copy of the parts page for the pto and inquired about parts availability as well. I have downloaded owners manual on hand but I don't Believe it shows the parts that in depth.
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Re: PTO help please

Postby Eugene » Wed May 08, 2013 6:23 pm

Johnny Lindqvist wrote:I have downloaded owners manual on hand but I don't Believe it shows the parts that in depth.
That's why there are parts manuals and service manuals. Free down load, top of page.
I have an excuse. CRS.
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Re: PTO help please

Postby Don McCombs » Wed May 08, 2013 7:58 pm

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Re: PTO help please

Postby Johnny Lindqvist » Wed May 08, 2013 8:00 pm

Yeah that's where I got my owners manuals for my tractor and almost all my attachments. Its great but I can't successfully navigate the parts manuals to find what I need. I click on something that says transmission and it brings me to a list with other parts, super a, cub attachments, etc, etc. Ill keep working on it.
Now that's a good picture.
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Re: PTO help please

Postby Scrivet » Wed May 08, 2013 9:17 pm

If you do a search, add a * (which is a wildcard) to the end of PTO. The search has to have four characters. One old thread with some good pictures of what can happen from a search...
http://www.farmallcub.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=51066&hilit=PTO%2A&start=0
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