New Rear Main Seal is Leaking/ New Member

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New Rear Main Seal is Leaking/ New Member

Postby CraigKennedy » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:24 pm

:help: Hello all, I am a new member but I have been reading on this forum on how to restore my 1957 Cub Lo-boy. Its been about a year now and I have basically took this tractor apart piece by piece, wire-wheeled, painted, and corrected everything, besides new piston, rings, and valves. Recently I split my tractor to fix a ongoing small oil leak. With the tractor split, I replaced the RMS (IH brand), JB welded the seal in, replaced the Retainer seal, heilcoiled the oil pan bolts, replaced the oil pump gasket and adjusted clutch, and added grease to throwout bearing. A few days ago, before the snow came in, I crunk the tractor up and let run at idle for four hours. When I went to cut the tractor off I noticed a small oil drop -_- I removed the starter and used an inspection camera, to see oil running down from the middle oil pan bolt bulge on the back side of the retainer. I am using cheap O'Rlliey's 30 wt non detergent oil, What am I doing wrong? I also did compreesion tests dry, with 105lbs on #1, 95lbs on #2 and #3, and 90lbs on #4. could blowby cause the seal to leak? I would like to add that I am 20 years old, I've spend many many hours on this restoration, and I can't stand to have a oil leak. Any Advice is more than welcome, Thanks again, and in advance guys!


*I also smeared grease around the inside in the new RMS and around the crank to prevent the seal from leaking to start with, I also installed a new pilot bushing while I was in there.
Last edited by CraigKennedy on Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New Rear Main Seal is Leaking/ New Member

Postby Bob McCarty » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:40 pm

Craig, Welcome to the Forum. You'll find a lot of friendly and knowledgeable Cub lovers here. I think your problem is with the seal you used. Are you sure it's leaking from a bolt and not the seal? There is not an off the shelf seal that fits correctly in the opening. Case/IH has a new seal retainer available (about $170 + seal). If you had to JB Weld your seal in, it is probably leaking. A Forum member (tst) is machining the old retainers larger so that a correct press fit seal can be installed. IF it's leaking badly you may need to split the tractor again. If it's only a slight drip, you might be able to live with it.

Bob
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Re: New Rear Main Seal is Leaking/ New Member

Postby Eugene » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:50 pm

CraigKennedy wrote:I also did compreesion tests dry, with 105lbs on #1, 95lbs on #2 and #3, and 90lbs on #4. could blowby cause the seal to leak? I would like to add that I am 20 years old, I've spend many many hours on this restoration, and I can't stand to have a oil leak. Any Advice is more than welcome.
Blow by is not causing the oil leak. The crank case is ventilated.

For having installed new rings and valves, compression is a bit low.

Oil leak. Could be the rear main crankshaft seal, or retainer to block gasket, or pan to block and retainer gasket.
I can't stand to have a oil leak.
Well. Owning equipment almost as old and some older than I am, 70 years old and working on engines for 60 plus years, a bit of oil seep doesn't bother me.
Last edited by Eugene on Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Rear Main Seal is Leaking/ New Member

Postby CraigKennedy » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:53 pm

Bob, I believe that is leaking from the seal, then dripping on to the middle bolt dimple on the back side on the retainer, I don't think the JB weld is leaking, I applied enough so that when I pushed the seal in some JB weld was mashed out, I then when around the edge to assure the seal would not leak from the outside.
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Re: New Rear Main Seal is Leaking/ New Member

Postby CraigKennedy » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:02 pm

Eugene, No at the cost of the cost of keeping the tractor more original, New rings and valves were NOT installed
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Re: New Rear Main Seal is Leaking/ New Member

Postby Rick Prentice » Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:18 am

Welcome Craig. Sounds like your seal should be epoxied in just fine to me. Did you by chance also remove the warpage on the back face of the retainer. You can see how bad they get with this image.
Image

The right side view is a retainer just lightly touched against the big belt sander and the left view after most warpage was removed. Out of the few years I did retainers, only one retainer was ever straight. Is there any chance your grease that you wiped around the inside of the seal has melted and dripped down?
I noticed a small oil drop

It's hard to find any good grease now days that doesn't turn liquid or break down. I'd maybe give it alittle time and see if it corrects itself before doing too much. If it turns into a 3 second drip, then you have something major.

I've often thought about the possibility of crankcase air pressure pushing oil or seals out of place. It'd have to be a really plugged dipstick filler cap screen along with alot of blow-by.The retainer is spaced away from the rear main bearing/cap, so actual oil pressure should not be a factor, unless oil is spraying out the bearing in exactly the right spot against the rear seal(if that's even possible). After working on cars/trucks most of my life and helping out the neighbor's shop, anything can happen to throw a curve ball at us once and awhile :o and not make any sense at all.

Keep us posted,
Rick
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Re: New Rear Main Seal is Leaking/ New Member

Postby CraigKennedy » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:00 am

Update on RMS!!! Last week I spilt the Lo-boy again, and sure enough it was indeed the rear main seal leaking from the inside diameter. I removed the National seal that I had put in a few weeks earlier and Ordered a Chicago-Rawhide 29952 Oil seal. I filed the back of the retain flat so that I had file marks running from bolt hole to bolt hole, and filed the bottom of the retainer flat also. When I was about to install the new 4.008 seal in the 3.876 retainer: I did not have a lathe and really didn't have the extra $$$ to go to the machine shop, so I used a Dermal tool with a sanding bit along with a grinding stone to enlarge the bore of the retainer :D (I had to use the grinding wheel to reach the inside of the bore to help assure its squareness around & in depth. I kept on going around and around with the dermal tool to while keeping the tool as square as possible in the bore, I would stop ever so often and turn the retainer, which I had help in a vise with wood on each side to assure I wasn't eating to much on each side.(young machinist in the making :mrgreen: ) I bored the retainer out to 4.008, I did get a measurement of 4.011 at one point in the bore, nothing major. I used JB Weld around the outside if the seal and pushed it in with some wood and a shop press, pushing the seal all the way to the back of the retainer bore, then let set a day. While that was setting, I looked at the end of the crank and felt a small bur,(enough for my fingernail to catch) I used a really small fine file to remove it(2 hits with file). the next day I smeared some multipurpose grease on the inside of the seal and the crank, installed the retainer, with new gasket W/ copper coat on both sides, reinstalled everything, and buttoned the tractor back up (took me 34 mins by myself!! I'm about to be a pro at that! lol 8) ) I put the tractor back together and all, I've had the tractor running for 10 hours now at Idle speeds and NO OIL LEAKKKK!!!!!! :{_}: So was it the National Seal that was leaking? or was ith the small bur on the crankshaft? or was the retainer not being perfectly square on the back causing the leaks? Ill never know for sure.... :roll: I did notice the CR-29952 fit tighter on the crank that the national seal did, (the all rubber one) but anyways I'm Happy that this tractor doesn't leak oil anymore!! :{_}: :{_}: :{_}: Thanks guys for your advice
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Re: New Rear Main Seal is Leaking/ New Member

Postby Criswell » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:39 am

CraigKennedy wrote:I am using cheap O'Rlliey's 30 wt non detergent oil,


The Cub has an oil filter, you should be using detergent oil. The detergent oil keeps the contaminants in suspension within the oil until it can pass through the filter.
Where you are, right now, is of absolutly no use unless you are able to get away from it, FAST!
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Re: New Rear Main Seal is Leaking/ New Member

Postby CraigKennedy » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:52 pm

Criswell, I am changing it soon as possible, I did notice some carbon blowing from the exhaust and oil fill tube. Do you think this is from using the non-detergent oil? Thanks
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Re: New Rear Main Seal is Leaking/ New Member

Postby Eugene » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:19 pm

CraigKennedy wrote:Criswell, I am changing it soon as possible, I did notice some carbon blowing from the exhaust and oil fill tube. Do you think this is from using the non-detergent oil? Thanks
Nope. most likely rings, either stuck or worn. Try some Seafoam in the engine oil and in the gas tank.

Use what ever engine oil you feel comfortable with. I use the same engine oil, weight and brand, in all my machines.
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Re: New Rear Main Seal is Leaking/ New Member

Postby CraigKennedy » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:27 pm

Eugene, I have been adding seafoam to the gas, and assed it to oil about 7 hours in, so its been running about 3 hours with seafoam, at idle speeds. How long do you think before it clears up?
Thanks,
Craig
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Re: New Rear Main Seal is Leaking/ New Member

Postby Eugene » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:33 pm

CraigKennedy wrote:Eugene, I have been adding seafoam to the gas, and assed it to oil about 7 hours in, so its been running about 3 hours with seafoam, at idle speeds. How long do you think before it clears up?
Probably never, but it is worth a cheap try. You also need to really work the engine to see if the rings free up.

Your compressions isn't bad, not that great. If the tractor does what you want, I would just use it as is.
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Re: New Rear Main Seal is Leaking/ New Member

Postby Criswell » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:16 pm

Eugene wrote:
CraigKennedy wrote:Criswell, I am changing it soon as possible, I did notice some carbon blowing from the exhaust and oil fill tube. Do you think this is from using the non-detergent oil? Thanks
Nope. most likely rings, either stuck or worn. Try some Seafoam in the engine oil and in the gas tank.

Use what ever engine oil you feel comfortable with. I use the same engine oil, weight and brand, in all my machines.


As Eugene said, nope not from using non-detergent oil. Whatever the brand or grade (30W, 10W-30, etc.), it is what you feel comfortable in using. Ask for reccomendations, you will get a ton of them. Use clean fresh oil, preferably what the manufacturer would reccomend, but if there is a filter, use detergent oil.

When I had carbon blowing from the exhaust I changed to a hotter plug than what the previous owner had installed. A couple of hours of mowing grass and no more carbon or "black" coming out of the muffler. The previous owner had D-14 plugs in it, too cold.
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