PTO Lever won't enage

Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:11 am

Searched around for similar problem but not sure what applies to my situation.

I have a '52 Cub that I restored and I have been working to get the "Bugs" out. I'm up to using my Pennington mower attached to the PTO. I cut some pretty tall grass with it last night that bogged the engine down but it ran through it. My issue now is the next day.. I cannot get the PTO lever to engage. I can't get it to engage with the clutch in or just standing still. I have a NEW spline in the tractor from my restore.

I took off the sifter assembly which really doesn't help in terms seeing anyting in the PTO. I then took out the filler plug and can see the PTO collar. it just won't go all the way forward to towards the trans housing. The mower is still on tractor and I pulled the belt to move the pulley to see If we could get any alignment.. but No good.

What happened? It worked last night.. and today can't get it to engage? It was a pain to get it in last night but it went in. Like I said it was HEAVE grass and brambles I mowed (More suited to a brush hog)... bu It worked.

Open to any suggestions.
Thanks
Andy
Andover, NJ

Re: PTO Lever won't enage

Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:18 am

You mentioned it being a new input shaft. Did you confirm that the bushing was installed in the end of the shaft that the PTO shaft engages into before assembly? Without a bushing, it would cause a pretty good misalignment in the splines. Loosen the belt to see if that helps.
Also, did you install the allen screw in the PTO shaft (the one that keeps it from moving too far forward)? Maybe its too tight?

Re: PTO Lever won't enage

Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:32 am

If the arm on the lever has worn flat, it may not be moving the PTO clutch forward enough to engage the splines also.
Image Photo from TM Tractor

It's the short arm on the lower right that will wear flat. Several possibilities and things to check.

Bob

Re: PTO Lever won't enage

Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:37 am

Is your oil level correct in your tranny so the bushing in the shaft is getting lubed. Did you pre lube it all during assembly.

Do you let the clutch up a tad so the spline can engage the mating parts?
Like teeth on the gears if the teeth but each other it won't engage. If we move it a tad it will engage.
Pull the plug and try to engage it when turning the pto pulley slowly.

When cutting heavy grass take light cuts till you get it down. It's a finish mower.

Re: PTO Lever won't enage

Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:36 am

There was pilot busing when I installed the new Shaft. by New shaft I meant the long trans spline (not pto shaft).
I have plenty of fluid in Trans.

When doing the mowing I had the mower way off the ground since it was high grass.

I must have some sort of misalignment. I guess I have to pull out the PTO shaft and inspect the splines and the lever arm.
One of the things I DO NOT remember anything about when I reassembled the PTO was a set screw on the clutch collar. I just don't recall doing anything with that.
I had taken the rear plates off the tractor in order to thoroughly flush the trans area before refilling. I wasn't really looking for PTO issues at the time since it worked for the brief time I had the machine before my strip down before restoration.

The only thing I HAVEN'T tried yet is to take the mower belt off the pulley (It was a bear getting the mower set up..Pennington 5 foot finishing mower) was hoping I could correct without messing with the set up.

I guess I'm going to have to pull the PTO out.
Thanks for the suggestions. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something obvious. I've had a host of "Cranky" problems since she was fired up. This is just the latest

Andy

Re: PTO Lever won't enage

Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:17 pm

RaymondDurban wrote:You mentioned it being a new input shaft. Did you confirm that the bushing was installed in the end of the shaft that the PTO shaft engages into before assembly? Without a bushing, it would cause a pretty good misalignment in the splines. Loosen the belt to see if that helps. .........
I have had a bushing in the back end of the driveshaft wear out. With the mower belt pulling down on shaft it is pushing up on the front end of the PTO shaft. The PTO shaft and the driveshaft aren't aligned end to end and wont allow the PTO collar to slide forward. Less likely is the small shaft on the front end of the PTO shaft has worn and creating missalignment. If you had problems getting the mower setup; how hard is the belt pulling on the pulley?

Easy way to confirm end to end misalignment is to stand at the rear wheel with the pulley in your right hand (for the safety police I'll say with the engine off :D ) and the shift lever in your left hand. Pull up hard on the pulley and try to put the PTO in gear, try rocking the pulley back and forth just a bit to get the splines to align.

Re: PTO Lever won't enage

Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:16 pm

I have tried all that rocking and lil moves...but I haven't tried that one. My fear is that I will pop off the belt for the belly mower and Poof it goes right in... That would indicate some sort of misalignment since the belt is pulling hard on the pulley. Its just odd since It worked yesterday.. I Guess I will try what you suggested, Next pull the belt off, and finally pull the whole PTO shaft out again.

I must be a BAD restorer with these weird problems..

Re: PTO Lever won't enage

Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:35 pm

Scrivet ,
I did "have a bear" of a time putting the belly mower on. Now this may because I had only done it once before when I had gotten the cub and mower (when she was Sick and would stall out just cutting). So tonight .. A hot sticky night on the east coast.. I finally got a little bit of time to go address the "issue". I figured I would take off the mower and pull the PTO shaft out to see what's going on. I have a Pennington 5 foot mower on it and I started by losing up the rear mounting bolts since I wanted to get the belt off the pulley. I knew the pulleys on the mower could be loosened however my main one was ALREADY all the way back so loosening that wouldn't get me any slack (Mind you this was only the 2nd time I had mounted the thing, all I knew was that the belt had to be tight enough to not slip). I had set it up by making the belt as tight as possible yanking on the mower while my wife shoved the rear mounting bolts through the holes. That was enough for a really tight main pulley and I Wacked the side ones with a rubber mallet to pull up their slack. Basically what I'm trying to say here is that I had that belt on really tight.

Ok... so back to my less the enthusiastic thought of removing the whole mower. While I was struggling to REMOVE the rear bracket bolts I realized that the pulleys below the PTO (that make the 90 degree turn) could be loosened and slid up to give me slack enough to remove the belt Without removing the mower mounting bolts. So that's what I did.

After taking off the belt I test the PTO lever and She popped in! Good news I GUESS?

I guess my question here is How TIGHT should this belt be..since it would appear I made mine super tight. I think I can get away with just firming up the pulleys below the PTO and still have the friction I need as well getting the PTO to pop in.
Is the "Normal" way of installing a belly mower. I think I really ratcheted mine on. It did work.. and I gave it a work out.. but then the next day I had the Engage problem.

If I threw something out of alignment with regards to the PTO what would it be and how do I correct it?

As always I appreciate the help I have always gotten here.
Thanks
Andy

Re: PTO Lever won't enage

Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:16 am

AGrinthal wrote:Basically what I'm trying to say here is that I had that belt on really tight.

That would be way too tight. ...and the reason it was difficult to engage the PTO. You haven't likely damaged anything in the PTO driveline. Loosen things up so that the belt is just snug (or slightly tight) when the deck is at mowing height, when the deck is raised the belt will loosen up. Here's a link for a Woods deck but I believe the belt tensioning info still applies. http://www.cleancomputes.com/Cub/OEM%20 ... %20Cub.pdf on page 5. Hopefully that will clear up your issue. Good luck!

Re: PTO Lever won't enage

Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:21 am

Smokeycub wrote:........ You haven't likely damaged anything in the PTO driveline. ................
There isn't enough slop between the driveshaft and the PTO shaft to keep the collar from sliding UNLESS something is worn. As I said before there are only two things that cause this; The bushing in the end of the driveshaft or the pilot shaft on the front end of the PTO shaft that fits in the driveshaft bushing. Odds are it's the bushing. Not all that tough to fix. Remove the PTO shaft, you can leave the oil in the transmission. Take a long drill bit (I think 7/16" but research that before trying) or one on an extension and carefully drill out the remaining bushing. Put a dab of grease IN the new bushing and slide it over a long bolt or threaded rod (3/8" comes to mind) with a nut screwed on the thickness of the bushing or slightly less. Push bushing into hole on driveshaft, lightly tap long bolt until seated. Smear some grease on the pilot shaft of the PTO shaft. Check the condition and operation of the collar and the little nub on the PTO lever, fix replace as necessary while you're in there. Reinstall the PTO shaft which can be the most difficult part depending on how many tries it takes to get the nub in the collar.

Re: PTO Lever won't enage

Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:31 am

SmokeyCub/Scrivet...
Thanks. I'm going to give her a whirl tonight and tomorrow with the belt not so ratcheted on. I guess that's why it was such a pan to get mounted.

I'm kind of anal and if its still a pain to engage the PTO I will do what Scrivet suggested.. seems easy enough (I had the PTO out when I restored it ..however I didn't replace the pilot pushing. Seems like everything I DIDN'T replace has been giving me issues with my break in period (..coil was one of those ... she cuts out after being run for a while.. almost like she has no gas...(Carb was EXPERTLY rebuilt so I know its not a carb issue).

Happy Pending Fourth!
Andy

Re: PTO Lever won't enage

Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:41 am

One other thing for consideration... Does the pto pulley move much at all up and down or side to side? I don't know enough about the year that they went from a staked PTO bearing to a snap ring, but I am wondering if your bearing hasn't shedded its stakes and allowed the pto shaft to have some slop in it? Was the main shaft new or used? It could be that the bushing that was in there was a bit worn and it, too, is allowing some slop in the driveline.

Re: PTO Lever won't enage

Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:00 am

I think I very slight play with the belt off.. I'll have to check again. If I do take it out I will replace the Pilot AND the bushing. might as well since I'm in there. I didn't really get much of a chance to get to know the machine before I pulled it all apart. So I can't say much about the health of the PTO. Now that I'm using it..I'm getting my Education.

Re: PTO Lever won't enage

Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:07 pm

AFAIK the pilot is part of the PTO shaft.

Re: PTO Lever won't enage

Wed Jul 02, 2014 4:50 pm

Scrivet wrote:There isn't enough slop between the driveshaft and the PTO shaft to keep the collar from sliding UNLESS something is worn. As I said before there are only two things that cause this; The bushing in the end of the driveshaft or the pilot shaft on the front end of the PTO shaft that fits in the driveshaft bushing. Odds are it's the bushing.

I'm not disagreeing with you, the odds are very good that you are absolutely correct. In many cases when there is some wear on the bushing and minimal looseness or slop at end of the PTO shaft, simply loosening a belt that is over tensioned is, more than likely, all that's needed. On my Cub I know immediately if deck drive belt is too tight by the sound and it can be a bit difficult to engage. I give the belt a little more slack and it's all good, no noise at all. I don't think I ever had it overly tight, Just sayin'.