pilot bushing too tight?

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Criswell
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Re: pilot bushing too tight?

Postby Criswell » Fri Apr 03, 2015 8:04 am

If you look through the pilot bushing in the flywheel, do you see any fresh/new wear indicated that would match-up with the wear that you are seeing on the end of the driveshaft? The chamfer on the end of the driveshaft would have been turned quickly and not finished or ground, so it would be a rough turning. When I had replaced the driveshaft on my Cub the chamfer was a rough turning, on both the original driveshaft and the brand new Case/IH replacement. The shoulder/step on the driveshaft would make contact first with the bushing, is the new bushing flush to the flywheel and not driven in too far?

As for the driveshaft moving forward, what kind of end play is on the driveshaft? If you grab on the end of the driveshaft and move it forward and backward, how far is the travel? When I had to replace the driveshaft on my Cub the front bearing in the transmission had worn out enough to allow the driveshaft to slide forward and backward. This continued back and forth motion over time wore down on the shoulder on the end of the driveshaft at the transmission, this caused even more end play. The worn out bearing and driveshaft mimicked a PTO problem due to a bearing retainer that had been installed backwards, allowing the driveshaft to slide forward. Check to see how far the driveshaft is moving forward and backward first, and go from there.
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Re: pilot bushing too tight?

Postby brewzalot » Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:19 am

Criswell wrote:do you see any fresh/new wear indicated that would match-up with the wear that you are seeing on the end of the driveshaft?


They look fresh and I retrieved shavings with a magnet...I don't remember it looking this way before but now I'm wondering if what I'm seeing is from a PO repair.

Criswell wrote:is the new bushing flush to the flywheel and not driven in too far?


Bushing is flush.

Criswell wrote:what kind of end play is on the driveshaft?


There is about .030 movement.

The drive shaft end measures about .623" ( I haven't cleaned it up yet) , I cannot get a good measurement on the pilot bushing ID, but a chrome .625" shaft will not go in it now. I'm thinking ream to size? but what size?

Edit- I don't think now the bushing spun in the bore as previously thought, it is pretty snug.


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Criswell
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Re: pilot bushing too tight?

Postby Criswell » Fri Apr 03, 2015 12:08 pm

I would have to say that the bushing got hot on the pilot end of the driveshaft, more than likely from being too tight.

brewzalot wrote:The drive shaft end measures about .623" ( I haven't cleaned it up yet) , I cannot get a good measurement on the pilot bushing ID, but a chrome .625" shaft will not go in it now. I'm thinking ream to size? but what size?


The ID of the bushing quoted on page 25 of the GSS-1008 Specification Manual lists the OD of the pilot end of the driveshaft as 0.621" to 0.622" with a running clearance in the pilot bushing of 0.004" to 0.006". The ID of the bushing after installation should be 0.626" to 0.627", by the manual. If it were mine, I would replace the bushing with a new one then ream to size, better to start fresh than use something that is already giving you trouble, but that is my opinion and what I would do. The 0.030" end play does not sound out of line, I don't think that the driveshaft is moving forward and back. The only thing that I would question is where are the metal shavings coming from that you are seeing. I do not know what the clearance is between the driveshaft end and the crankshaft, but I do not think it is close enough to make contact. If someone knows what the clearance should be I would be interested to know. I think that this was just a case of a bushing being too tight due to not being reamed for proper clearance.
Last edited by Criswell on Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Don McCombs
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Re: pilot bushing too tight?

Postby Don McCombs » Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:19 pm

This may have been mentioned earlier, but what is the source of the "too small ID" bushing? Thanks.
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Re: pilot bushing too tight?

Postby Eugene » Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:20 pm

Done messed with this problem enough. Go to Case IH and get the proper bushing.

This time, trial test the fit before installing the bushing in the crankshaft.
I have an excuse. CRS.

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Re: pilot bushing too tight?

Postby brewzalot » Fri Apr 03, 2015 8:55 pm

Don McCombs wrote: what is the source of the "too small ID" bushing?


Don, looked back in my files I purchased it from Farmall Cubs Forever in Dec of 2013.

Criswell wrote:The ID of the bushing quoted on page 25 of the GSS-1008 Specification Manual lists the OD of the pilot end of the driveshaft as 0.621" to 0.622" with a running clearance in the pilot bushing of 0.004" to 0.006". The ID of the bushing after installation should be 0.626" to 0.627",


Criswell, thank you for posting this. I remeasured my drive shaft end precisely at .621" , the pilot bushing was at .624". I will be honest I never gave this a thought at assembly, I did try the shaft but did not measure anything. I didn't realize too that all this information is in the Blue Ribbon Manuals.

I went ahead and honed the pilot bushing to .628" ( left it in the crankshaft) - a tad big but wanted to be sure it had room. Put everything back together tonight- RUNNING LIKE A DREAM, SHIFTS INTO GEAR BEAUTIFULLY, PTO THE SAME. :{_}:

This was a hard lesson for me, but hopefully many will learn from my mistake. And for anyone who is hesitant on splitting a tractor, I must say it went way better and faster than I thought it would for my first time.

Thanks again to all that helped and replied, especially Criswell and Eugene who nailed it.

Tim

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Re: pilot bushing too tight?

Postby Don McCombs » Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:01 pm

I think the take home lesson here is to not assume that aftermarket parts are going to function the same as OEM. Even though they are always more expensive, stick with the CaseIH parts.
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Re: pilot bushing too tight?

Postby Eugene » Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:56 am

Don McCombs wrote:I think the take home lesson here is to not assume that aftermarket parts are going to function the same as OEM. Even though they are always more expensive, stick with the CaseIH parts.
Actually, that's from my lessons learned file.

In a couple of instances the IH dealership had the needed parts on hand at a lower price than the after market part and no waiting period.

I have a New Holland dealership about 1 mile down the road and an IH dealership about 13 miles down the road. Both use the IH parts numbers. If I have the IH part number, it's either on hand or available in a day or two.

Edit while I'm thing about this topic. Years ago I was in line at the Ford tractor dealership and the guy in front of me ordered and received IH sickle bar parts. Years late I need new rock guards for the IH sickle bar mower. The new rock guards were in a bin at the New Holland dealership.
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Re: pilot bushing too tight?

Postby challenger » Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:51 am

This has been stated before, but needs repeating. The knowledgeable folks on this forum that provide advise everyday obtain their satisfaction from knowing they have actually been helpful in resolving a problem. They will never know unless the Cub member who posted the problem does not report back on how the mechanical problem was solved. This after action report serves not only as a thank you for all those who gave their advice, but, more importantly, serves as a learning experience for everyone who followed the posted problem. Even the experts benefit because in mechanics there is no such thing as being right all the time or knowing everything there is to know about the Cub. None of us ever stops learning. So, please try to remember, like brewzalot did, to post those after action reports.

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Re: pilot bushing too tight?

Postby brewzalot » Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:17 am

challenger wrote:This has been stated before, but needs repeating. The knowledgeable folks on this forum that provide advise everyday obtain their satisfaction from knowing they have actually been helpful in resolving a problem. They will never know unless the Cub member who posted the problem does not report back on how the mechanical problem was solved. This after action report serves not only as a thank you for all those who gave their advice, but, more importantly, serves as a learning experience for everyone who followed the posted problem. Even the experts benefit because in mechanics there is no such thing as being right all the time or knowing everything there is to know about the Cub. None of us ever stops learning. So, please try to remember, like brewzalot did, to post those after action reports.


Well said Challenger

Don McCombs wrote:stick with the CaseIH parts.


OEM makes sense.
I'm lucky to have a CaseIH dealer 10 miles away, I just wish they were a little more friendly...

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Re: pilot bushing too tight?

Postby Criswell » Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:31 am

Don McCombs wrote:I think the take home lesson here is to not assume.....


I believe that the take home lesson here is to not assume, period. A simple enough step was missed/overlooked/not known (it is not even mentioned in the GSS-1411 Service Manual) that led to a big headache and ate up a lot of time and effort for brewzalot. I am happy for him that it was a simple enough fix (splitting the tractor again not withstanding) and that all is well and running fine. I especially liked the follow up and wrap up of the situation that he had posted (just as challenger had noted), that kind of information is good to know and hear; What the problem was, why it happed and what fixed it.


A big part of a problem such as this is that even if you have the manual right in front of you, it does not say to check the ID of the bushing after installation in the GSS-1411 Service Manual, only "If worn, replace the bearing (be sure bushing is clean and lightly lubricated)." If this is the only manual that you have and you do it "as told" and "by the book", you are doing it right but you are more than likely going to have a problem unless you check with a different manual for this missing/secret step. I have wondered why the information in the GSS-1008 Specifications Manual is not included in the Gss-1411 Service Manual, it only seems logical that all that information should be together in one book. Why is this information split between two different manuals? I do not believe this problem to have been a question of an original part versus one of aftermarket manufacture, rather a mistake in the service manual for not telling you to check the diameter of the new bushing after installing it, unless you knew to look in the different manual where it does tell you to do that.

An assumption had been made that the shaft and bushing fit fine after a new bushing had been installed, others have done the same thing with similar results. If the ID of the bushing had been checked against the specification in the manual after installation the problem would have been caught and dealt with right then and there. But this information is split between two different books.

Congratulations on the fix! I hope you have many happy hours of use between this and the next repair.
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Re: pilot bushing too tight?

Postby BigBill » Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:23 pm

Remember to put some white grease on the pilot bushing and some on the input shaft splines.

But if you look past the pilot bushing it appears there's a hard rub on the crankshaft from the tranny shaft? Sorry but it looks questionable?
I'm technically misunderstood at times i guess its been this way my whole life so why should it change now.

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Re: pilot bushing too tight?

Postby brewzalot » Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:18 pm

BigBill wrote:But if you look past the pilot bushing it appears there's a hard rub on the crankshaft from the tranny shaft? Sorry but it looks questionable?


Big Bill, that was my original concern but after a lot of head scratchin and the input from the forum members I settled on that being a previous repair from a previous owner. The pilot bushing was definitely too tight- I hope that's all it was.

thanks for pointing that out however.

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Re: pilot bushing too tight?

Postby BigBill » Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:38 am

Don't forget to lube the pilot shaft bearing. A little white grease.
I'm technically misunderstood at times i guess its been this way my whole life so why should it change now.

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Re: pilot bushing too tight?

Postby Boss Hog » Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:39 am

I have replaced many clutches in Cubs and have only had to replace the pilot bushing 4 or 5 times. They seldom need replacing. And if you do not have a tool to install it , you run the risk of mushrooming the bushing causing the same type problem that you have had.
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