Demonstrator ID

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JakkDamar
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Demonstrator ID

Postby JakkDamar » Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:39 pm

Hello Cub owners. I just registered and posted in the "Introduce yourself" section so some of my story is there. Well I have a 1950 Demonstrator Cub that just followed me home the other day. I suppose I should get this out of the way....is it a Demonstrator or not? Serial # 104921. Pics to come later. I have seen the Demonstrator web sight and tried to check out all of the little pointers to look for. I guess the Cub purists will be able to jump in and tell me a few other things to consider. Mind you I don't really care if it is or it is not. Its not going anywhere. I just know I'm going to be peppered with questions whenever it gets out and I want to be able to sound like I know what I'm talking about. Thanks guys. :)
Oh here is a bit of info. The tractor was restored by a guy named Bob Christianson from Minot, ND. I looked him up and he had died in 2011 so no info from him will be forthcoming. Don't know if he was known in your Cub community.
Last edited by JakkDamar on Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Super A
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Tractors Owned: 1949 Cub "The Paperweight"
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856
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Re: Demonstrator ID

Postby Super A » Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:42 pm

JakkDamar wrote:Hello Cub owners. I just registered and posted in the "Introduce yourself" section so some of my story is there. Well I have a 1950 Demonstrator Cub that just followed me home the other day. I suppose I should get this out of the way....is it a Demonstrator or not? Serial # 104921. Pics to come later. I have seen the Demonstrator web sight and tried to check out all of the little pointers to look for. I guess the Cub purists will be able to jump in and tell me a few other things to consider. Mind you I don't really care if it is or it is not. Its not going anywhere. I just know I'm going to be peppered with questions whenever it gets out and I want to be able to sound like I know what I'm talking about. Thanks guys. :)


Best way to tell for sure is look for white paint underneath the red.

Al
White Demo Super A Restoration Updates

Let us pray for farmers and all who prepare the soil for planting, that the seeds they sow may lead to a bountiful harvest.
"It ain't a !@*% A. It's a SUPER A!"

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Re: Demonstrator ID

Postby Barnyard » Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:07 pm

Welcome to the forum! According to Raymond' data base, serial number 104886 is a confirmed demonstrator that has never been painted. I would think it is safe to say yours is a demonstrator.
http://www.cleancomputes.com/Cub/Cub%20 ... e%20R4.pdf
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Scrivet
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Re: Demonstrator ID

Postby Scrivet » Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:30 pm

I'm skeptical, I'm from Missouri, you have to show me! A serial number ALONE doesn't make a demonstrator in my opinion. Most likely in this case it is, but how long ago was it "confirmed"? Longer than it takes to swap a bolster? You need to check for the white paint under red, white paint in out of the way places, (as has already been mentioned), as well as verify casting date codes are correct, and what ever proof you can research.

Will you ever be 100% certain? I doubt it, and unless you personally saw the tractor come off the dealers lot white in 1950 and have knowledge of it for the last 65 years you never will. But you can get real close to that 100% and that's about the best anyone can do. Being knowledgeable about demonstrators is the best answer to anyone questioning it's authenticity. You're on the right track by becoming informed. :{_}:

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bob in CT
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Re: Demonstrator ID

Postby bob in CT » Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:06 pm

If Raymond vetted it and put it into the database as a demonstrator, I would have a high level of confidence that it is.

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Super A
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Tractors Owned: 1949 Cub "The Paperweight"
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White demo Super A-"Ol Whitey"
1950 Super A "Old Ugly"
1954 Super A-1
856
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Circle of Safety: Y
Location: NC, Jacksonville area

Re: Demonstrator ID

Postby Super A » Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:56 am

bob in CT wrote:If Raymond vetted it and put it into the database as a demonstrator, I would have a high level of confidence that it is.


I agree.
FWIW my personal criteria for a white demo are: serial number, casting codes, and presence of white paint under the red. The white paint under the red is the "smoking gun" especially if the red paint is old. People weren't faking white demos 30-40-50 years ago.

Al
White Demo Super A Restoration Updates

Let us pray for farmers and all who prepare the soil for planting, that the seeds they sow may lead to a bountiful harvest.
"It ain't a !@*% A. It's a SUPER A!"

dickcub50
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Re: Demonstrator ID

Postby dickcub50 » Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:18 am

Old white paint is a must to ID a demonstrator. Plus the serial number range.
I have two 1950 cubs in the serial number range, 100907 and 101818.
Cub 100907 is a documented demonstrator, Cub 101818 is not and has never
seen white paint. One can not go by the serial number to claim he has a demonstrator.
If you have a proven demonstrator document it with photographs.
1- 1950 cub
1- 1950 cub demonstrator
1- 1958 International cub lo-boy
1- Allis Chalmers 720

Scrivet
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Re: Demonstrator ID

Postby Scrivet » Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:05 pm

I have nothing against Raymond and truly appreciate, and am thankful for the countless hours he has put into researching, and especially maintaining the databases and other contributions he makes to the Cub community.

HOWEVER! Let me expand on something I said above
Scrivet wrote:.......... but how long ago was it "confirmed"? Longer than it takes to swap a bolster? ..............
Having the serial number in the database is in it's favor but I'm sure when Raymond confirmed it he did more than just look at the serial number. What I'm saying is to do the same thing again unless you know the full history of the Cub from when it was confirmed until now. There are plenty of scenarios where it is possible that a "confirmed demonstrator" could get parted out. What if Raymond confirms it, the next month the TOB fails, the tractor gets parked, the engine seizes, the scrapper comes by and decides to make a couple bucks more selling it to his buddy. The buddy fiddles with it a little and decides to part it out. I see his Craigslist ad for a bolster to replace the one I have that has a big freeze crack. MY CUB IS NOW A DEMONSTRATOR BECAUSE MY NEW SERIAL NUMBER IS IN THE DATABASE AS A "CONFIRMED DEMONSTRATOR"??????????? What if I run across this serial number 10, 25, or 50 years from now? Should I still have a "high level of confidence" it's a demonstrator just because the serial number is confirmed in the database?

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Super A
10+ Years
10+ Years
Posts: 4564
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 10:53 am
Zip Code: 28521
Tractors Owned: 1949 Cub "The Paperweight"
Cub powered IH 52R combine
Grandfather's 1948 Super A
White demo Super A-"Ol Whitey"
1950 Super A "Old Ugly"
1954 Super A-1
856
Buncha other junk
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: NC, Jacksonville area

Re: Demonstrator ID

Postby Super A » Fri May 01, 2015 5:28 am

Scrivet wrote:I have nothing against Raymond and truly appreciate, and am thankful for the countless hours he has put into researching, and especially maintaining the databases and other contributions he makes to the Cub community.

HOWEVER! Let me expand on something I said above
Scrivet wrote:.......... but how long ago was it "confirmed"? Longer than it takes to swap a bolster? ..............
Having the serial number in the database is in it's favor but I'm sure when Raymond confirmed it he did more than just look at the serial number. What I'm saying is to do the same thing again unless you know the full history of the Cub from when it was confirmed until now. There are plenty of scenarios where it is possible that a "confirmed demonstrator" could get parted out. What if Raymond confirms it, the next month the TOB fails, the tractor gets parked, the engine seizes, the scrapper comes by and decides to make a couple bucks more selling it to his buddy. The buddy fiddles with it a little and decides to part it out. I see his Craigslist ad for a bolster to replace the one I have that has a big freeze crack. MY CUB IS NOW A DEMONSTRATOR BECAUSE MY NEW SERIAL NUMBER IS IN THE DATABASE AS A "CONFIRMED DEMONSTRATOR"??????????? What if I run across this serial number 10, 25, or 50 years from now? Should I still have a "high level of confidence" it's a demonstrator just because the serial number is confirmed in the database?


The casting numbers, (which should be late '49--first few months of ''50) combined with old white paint underneath red in more than one spot is really all you need to confirm a demo. If somebody swaps bolsters you're going to find old white paint on the bolster but nowhere else. Plus the front portion of the tractor having a date code of early '50 and the rest of the tractor having codes from say '59 would be a give-away.

Al
White Demo Super A Restoration Updates

Let us pray for farmers and all who prepare the soil for planting, that the seeds they sow may lead to a bountiful harvest.
"It ain't a !@*% A. It's a SUPER A!"

rfenginecub
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Re: Demonstrator ID

Postby rfenginecub » Fri May 01, 2015 10:37 pm

It seams that after reading most all the posts on this thread,. Most people think that if you question the validity of A demo,.. All u gotta do is scrap off some paint and,.. IF. You see white paint,.. U GOT URSELF A DEMO,...REALLY...How many people posted this??..
Ive done many restorations and don't consider it a good job UNLESS I sand blast the entire chassie. and remove all the paint on the tins...I don't know whos who here,.. But, I do know that Iam not the only one using a sand blaster here or on many other sites.

no offence intended
ERIC

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Re: Demonstrator ID

Postby Scrivet » Fri May 01, 2015 11:36 pm

Super A wrote: .......
The casting numbers, (which should be late '49--first few months of ''50) combined with old white paint underneath red in more than one spot is really all you need to confirm a demo. If somebody swaps bolsters you're going to find old white paint on the bolster but nowhere else. Plus the front portion of the tractor having a date code of early '50 and the rest of the tractor having codes from say '59 would be a give-away. Al
Which is EXACTLY my point! A serial number alone in the database doesn't guarantee it's a demonstrator without further supporting information. A serial number ALONE wasn't acceptable proof to Raymond when he put it in the database and it isn't acceptable to me now.

I hope our discussion has given JakkDamar some useful information to be ready for all those questions he's expecting to be peppered with. :D I'd really like to see a picture of his Cub (reminder, hint, hint!). I'm kinda hoping it's a yellow one though :wink: :lol:

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RaymondDurban
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Re: Demonstrator ID

Postby RaymondDurban » Tue May 26, 2015 7:23 pm

This conversation is certainly not the first time the discussion has come up, and I'm sure it certainly won't be the last. I knew threads like this would come up when I started adding the "Confirmed Demonstrator" labels in the database, and was hesitant to do so at first because I knew someone would get their feelings hurt when I didn't add the same tag to their tractor. My rational and benchmark for adding the "Confirmed DEMO" label was only after I saw the tractor myself, or documented photos of the tractor posted on this forum or other places on the internet, still in its unrestored condition with white paint showing under multiple parts on the tractor. If a tractor was/is painted White, within the range, but I saw no photo documentation of its unrestored condition, then it is listed as "POSSIBLE - No Photo Proof", the same as if I had only the SN and no other data at all. If the owner reported that their tractor is within the range, but has no evidence of ever being painted white, I listed it as "Confirmed NOT a DEMO". I have a tractor that fits this last scenario myself.

The Database is not intended to be a "forever" living history of each tractor or its collective parts. There is no way I can document the lifecycle of each part of tractors through the Cub's 30+ year production. So with Scrivet's example of a tractor being parted out in the future and verifying it's authenticity, yes, that pitfall certainly exists. But, its no different than the tractors I have listed as "Parted Out". Someone ended up with the bolster, and the corresponding SN tag from most all these parted out tractors. These database entries are only intended to identify that the original tractor no longer exists in its "original form". The same is true for the "Confirmed Demonstrators", that they originally existed as a DEMO. From this point forward, the prospective buyer/owner will need to educate themselves on how to read casting codes and the nuances of Cub production. I have identified parts that are not original to the tractor (cast codes/SN's) in red text in the database so it is easily identifiable which items are not original.

In recording the numbers, I had no idea how the data would play out, but if you look at the listings, there is an apparant pattern that appears relative to the "Red" vs "White" tractors of this time period. So, when someone like JakkDamar joins the forum and presents a new SN that is not listed in the database, but falls within an apparent white paint run, I feel comfortable telling them that they have a high likelihood of having a DEMO tractor, but I won't record it as such until I see some photographic proof. Same is true of a SN in an apparent red range. If no other information is presented, it too is listed as a "Possible - No Photo Proof".

rfenginecub wrote:It seams that after reading most all the posts on this thread,. Most people think that if you question the validity of A demo,.. All u gotta do is scrap off some paint and,.. IF. You see white paint,.. U GOT URSELF A DEMO,...REALLY...How many people posted this??..
Ive done many restorations and don't consider it a good job UNLESS I sand blast the entire chassie. and remove all the paint on the tins...I don't know whos who here,.. But, I do know that Iam not the only one using a sand blaster here or on many other sites.

no offence intended
ERIC


Welcome to the board Eric, glad to have you with us.
With your example of a tractor being blasted, removing all traces of the original paint, then I would document it as a "Possible - No Photo Proof", unless you had before pics. There was a time a few short years ago that many believe that ALL tractors made during the first three months were DEMO models, but we now know that this just is not the case. During this time, many people painted their tractors white because it was commonly accepted to do so, even from members of this forum.

TL/DR: For me to list a tractor in the Database as "anything" confirmed, it will all come down to followup information such as the tractor's history, casting codes, SN's and photo evidence.


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