Clutch shaft floating

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Ian D
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Clutch shaft floating

Postby Ian D » Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:15 pm

Hello again Folks
I have another problem I would like to seek some advice on and draw upon your wide range of Cub experiences!
I am in the process of rebuilding my Cub, the engine now pretty much re-assembled (with crankshaft end play now). I have had the clutch shaft (top shaft) out of the gearbox end to have a speedy-sleeve fitted where the front oil seal runs due to the shaft being grooved. Whilt I was in there; as I am so fussy - I renewed the gearbox selector balls and springs and also the core plugs in the front face as one was leaking. I also renewed the front two bearings as one was tight and one rough. I got all my parts from TM (excellent service from Ron) and I renewed the seals as well as necessary.

However; I now have a problem - when I re-assembled it all there is about 8mm end float play in the clutch shaft (top shaft) when the oil seal retainer is bolted up. I knew the rear PTO bearing was seized so I renewed it and refitted the rear housing etc (pto shaft into the clutch shaft) but the end float still exists. If it was like this before I took it apart - I did not notice - I dont know. Please see the attached photograph - this shows the shaft pushed right in (back) but should the front bearing not sit flush with the front face? you can see the 8mm space that exists when the seal retainer is bolted up. The bearing is positioned correctly on the clutch shaft - right up to the step in the spilnes along with clip to hold it in place. What I did notice when stripping it down was the flywheel sintered bronze bush was very badly scored (which I have renewed) - maybe this shaft was moving about before I inherited it?

Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated as I am unable to refit the centre housing and engine until I sort this problem. I cannot find any spacers or alike in the bottom of the gearbox that may of fallen down when I took the shaft out? I have tried fishing with a magnet but cannot find anything. This problem may well have existed prior to me buying the Cub? or I have made an error some where along the line?

I look forward to any advice or suggestions

Thank you
Regards
Ian
Scotland
Attachments
B.jpg
Position when pushed right back (in)

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Glen
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Re: Clutch shaft floating

Postby Glen » Wed Jun 17, 2015 6:19 pm

Hi Ian,
If you put the front retainer on with the seal lip facing towards the transmission, there should not be any excessive end play. I don't know without being there what it would be, if you still have too much end play with the seal facing the correct way.
Something I see in your picture that needs inspecting is the bearing, is it a bearing with the seal on one side, or both sides. If it is sealed on one side, you have put it on the shaft backwards. The transmission is made to lubricate the front bearing with the little trough at the top, when the tractor is moving. The oil runs down through the little hole between the seal and the bearing. For the bearing with a seal on one side, they have said on here before that it should face with the sealed side towards the gears. Then the oil can get into the bearing.
If it is sealed on both sides, then there is no problem.
The trough also oils the rear bearing, so be sure the little holes over the bearings are open and clean.
Also, you said you replaced the pilot bushing in the end of the crankshaft. They have said on here that there have been problems with the bushing ID in new bushings being slightly too small, so when people push the clutch pedal down to shift the transmission, the upper shaft keeps turning and the gears grind. Measure the end of the shaft and the ID of the bushing with a good caliper, and see if they will fit and not be tight. The shaft has to be so it will turn freely in the bushing. :)
Last edited by Glen on Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Bill V in Md
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Re: Clutch shaft floating

Postby Bill V in Md » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:07 pm

Ian,
The below photos show the position of the bearing, bearing retainer and lip that Glen is talking about. Also, in this photo the open side of the bearing faces the retainer.
Attachments
photo 4a.JPG
photo 2a.JPG
Bill VanHooser
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challenger
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Re: Clutch shaft floating

Postby challenger » Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:26 am

As you correctly surmise, you need to try and eliminate the horizontal free play in the drive shaft to maximize the ability of the PTO collar to engage the shaft. This is accomplished by making sure the front tranny bearing is fully pressed on the drive shaft back to the raised shoulder on the shaft and the bearing/seal retainer is firmly pressing the bearing into the bearing socket in the tranny. I can think of two things you may wish to try to fully seat the bearing in the case. Reduce the thickness of the bearing retainer gasket and/or place a steel shim between the retainer and the bearing. If you use a steel shim, make sure the shim has the same outer diameter as the outer bearing diameter and the center hole in the shim is larger than the shaft so the shim will not contact the rotating shaft.

Ian D
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Re: Clutch shaft floating

Postby Ian D » Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:35 pm

Excellent responses folks, thank you very much indeed. I will get back to it at the weekend and have another look at this. My new upper shaft front bearing (photo) was sealed both on sides, I removed the rear facing seal so oil could get into it, however, following your advice and understanding how the retainer works (I think I understand) I will remove the front facing seal in the bearing too - that is the correct thing to do isnt it?

The crankshaft bearing is correct, I bought one from Farmallparts.com (TM had stoped exporting at the time) and when my engine was up at the engineers machine shop I asked him just to press it in as I dont have a press. The guys are spot on - they didnt fit the supplied bush as it was not sintered bronze! It was just plain bronze - no good as it will not self lubriate - hence the shaft would drag in the bush when it gets hot- drag gears and squeel - so be aware if buying the crankshaft bushings from them. My local guys ended up making a sintered bronze bush from scratch and sizing it to the clutch shaft size.
I will keeep in touch.

Many thanks for taking the time to help, you USA guys are a credit to tractor restoration circles!!
Best regards
Ian

Ian D
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Re: Clutch shaft floating

Postby Ian D » Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:42 pm

Just one point - I understand Glen says if the bearing has one seal (one side) it should go towards the rear. However, because I have now removed the seal to the rear and as I have a speedy sleeve on the shaft - I cannot take the bearing off and turn it round - so am I correct in saying the best thing I can do now is to remove the seal that is currently facing frontwards (the bearing will then have no seals/open) then the bearing will lubriate sufficently?

Thanks
Regards
Ian

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Glen
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Tractors Owned: 1956 Farmall Cub with Fast Hitch, F-11 plow, Disc, Cultivator, Cub-22 mower
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Location: Wa.

Re: Clutch shaft floating

Postby Glen » Thu Jun 18, 2015 6:03 pm

Hi,
Glad you are making some progress.
If you removed the rear seal from the bearing, then I would remove the front seal from the bearing also, then it will get oil from the trough.
You didn't say if you had the front retainer facing the right way, or if that was the reason for the excess end play.
Here are pics of the retainer from TM Tractor parts. Yours should look like this, the side with the bulge goes towards the bearing, the flat side faces forward. :)

http://www.tmtractor.com/new/tr/431fp.htm

Ian D
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Re: Clutch shaft floating

Postby Ian D » Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:01 pm

Hi Glen
Cheers for that I will take the other seal out of the bearing. I havent been back into my workshop to check the retainer - to be perfectly honest with you it sounds like I have simply got that retainer the wrong way round! It sounds crazy but it is months since I took it apart - fatal mistake I guess! What has possibly happened is when I went to put the retainer back on - I guess the bearing was maybe sitting flush and I would just asuume the retainer went wide part to the front as there looked like there was no room for it inside the gearbox housing - but and this is the important bit - had I payed attention - the seal along-with the spring on that seal would not be facing the oil! I hope I have made this error as then it is easily rectified.

Thanks once again for your support its greatly appreciated
Regards
Ian


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