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Ellie's Head - Am I in Trouble?

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Bill
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Postby Bill » Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:45 pm

I hope it is not in that bad of shape. Should have wife proof read message.
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Postby Rudi » Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:11 pm

Well, I got some more work done. The piston tops are clean, the valve tops are clean as is the block. Working on the head now. Was hoping to have it already to go back together tonight, but that didn't pan out.

Spent some time cleaning the head bolts. Seems they are not exactly original as the IH dot that was on the other bolts for the inlet is missing on the head bolts. May have been replaced at an earlier time :?: Anyways, some of them bolts look kind of iffy to me - seems to be kind of thin in places for lack of a better description. I think it would be prudent of me to just get new head bolts - Yes :?: . I need new plugs anyways and I forgot to get the gasket for the inlet, so it didn't all get done.

Let me know if I am correct in assuming it is wiser to get new bolts than to bust one in the block :roll: :oops: :roll: :idea: :!: :!: I think so anyways..

Gonna run off for the evening. It is after 11 and we got wood to cut tomorrow too....
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Postby Donny M » Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:49 pm

You are correct Rudi, it would be wise to get new bolts. Sometimes the old ones are streched.
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Postby johnbron » Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:51 pm

Yes Indeed Rudi, Get new head bolts and save yourself a BIG headache and a little money later on down the road. :idea:
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Postby Buzzard Wing » Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:57 pm

Rudi, as you know I am not wise about such things,.... but I believe the head bolts are 'special', not ordinary bolts. Donny or someone else can give a better answer than me, but I think they have a bit of stretch (?) that ordinary bolts don't. So you may want to be careful getting new ones. I think most folks would agree that it is a good idea to replace em anyway.

With that said I had to look at the photos of the head on the 71 just to see what they look like. To my suprise they appear to be marked like grade 8 which caught me a bit off guard, as that just doesn't seem right to have grade 8 into a casting. (you have the photo it is DSCN3566)

I never knew what a 'dot' bolt was till I got the red tractor, there are NONE on the 71.
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Postby George Willer » Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:58 pm

Rudi,

It will be best to use the correct bolts from IH, since they are a special length. If you choose to use hardware store grade 8 bolts, be sure to trim them to the length of the originals so they don't project into the water jacket. Barnicles in the projecting threads could be a big problem in the future. Don't forget to use sealant on the threads at assembly.

The deposits on the head look like most heads I have removed... don't worry about it. Just clean it as well as you can.
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Postby Rudi » Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:25 am

Guys:

Gonna order them up this morning. Hopefully Babineau's has the head bolts in stock.. sure hope so. Need the gasket too..

I sure appreciate all the comments and I feel much, much better today about the whole process.

Em happily will go down later today after we cut some wood and take pics.

Larry - it is that pile right where the camper was.... both rows :!: :D
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Postby John *.?-!.* cub owner » Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:15 am

Rudi, use a gasket sealer such as Copper Coat on the gasket. I also use it as an antisieze and sealer on the head bolts. Alos do not put washers under the head bolts.
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Anti-Seize

Postby allenlook » Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:54 am

Use the Copper Anti-Sieze if you've got it, but be very careful if you're torquing the bolts back to spec.

There was a long, long discussion on the Porsche lists back in the old days. Those cars have a lot of bolts going into expensive, rare, or soft metal castings (aluminum, etc.), and torquing a bolt with Anti-Sieze or any kind of lubricant on it is not the same as torquing it to spec "dry", the concensus was that you are in fact stretching the bolt *more* than was intended and placing more force on the components involved than if you were using the bolt "dry".

It was the cause of a lot of broken head bolts later on, and while I don't think that would necessarily happen in this circumstance, it is possible to overstress those old threads and munge them up.
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Re: Anti-Seize

Postby George Willer » Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:35 am

allenlook wrote:

It was the cause of a lot of broken head bolts later on, and while I don't think that would necessarily happen in this circumstance, it is possible to overstress those old threads and munge them up.


It's possible to do more damage than simply messing up the threads. I had a block that was a victim of serious overtorqueing. The 3 center bolts on the oil filter side had actually broken the threaded part out of the block... breaking the webs through the cooling passages and causing the threads to be proud of the deck. The engine had last been worked on at a vocational school probably with big, strong boys. Needless to say, the engine was junk as a result.

I always torque a head in easy gradual stages, and NEVER go above specs for any reason.
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Ouch

Postby allenlook » Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:43 pm

Ouch! That must have been something to see!

The tricky thing is, torquing a lubed bolt to spec can mean applying much more force than to an identical but dry bolt... You can torque it "over-spec" without even knowing it. You read 10 foot pounds on the wrench, but it went an extra turn because of the decreased resistance, which can mean huge additional stresses on the threads and the components...

I think the thing to do is use anti-sieze *sparingly* and torque "respectfully", whatever the heck that means :D
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Postby John *.?-!.* cub owner » Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:34 pm

A cubs head bolts open into the water jacket, so ilke using a selaer on them.
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Postby Rudi » Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:54 pm

Seems that Cubs are not as popular as they once were :!: :roll: :shock:

I am going to have to wait until Thursday to get me head bolts. They had one in stock -- the long one that is.. and I need 9 of one and 6 of the other. Also they cannot find the new numbers that relate to the bolts for the Water Outlet... I take it that is just a stock 3/8"-16 NC x 7/8" bolt right?.. Be nice to have the IH "Dot" bolts, but beggars can't be choosers.

Ok, so what is the concensus :?: Copper stuff or dry for the gasket? And why?

I get to try my shiney new Dial-o-matic Torque-emUp wrench the girls got for my birthday last year... hmmm been waiting. Now I gotta learn how to use it.

Snappin head bolts is not something I want experience at :? :roll: :lol:

So, we are going out for my BIL and his Better Half's 25th anniversary, so playing with Ellie will have to wait.

Oh, was out cutting wood with my girls and Em today (pics later) and I guess I did it again.. for some reason lately I am bustin up engines... my 10Hp Tecumseh Sno-King is tossing oil. I hope I just over filled it a bit.. will see in the morning... Geesh.. :shock: :? :roll: :!:
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John *.?-!.* cub owner
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Postby John *.?-!.* cub owner » Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:31 pm

Lurker Carl posted a note on allowances for antisiez whe torquing head bolts on the HOW TO forum. http://www.farmallcub.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9064
thnaks Carl, you came through again.
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Postby Eugene » Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:02 pm

Rudi:

Looks to me to be mostly a bad head gasket.

If you haven't done so. Get some 300 or 400 grit emery cloth and polish up the mating surfaces of the head and block. Put a rag on top of each piston before you use the emery cloth, Vacuum and clean up very well. You don't want the emery in the pistons.

I'm not sure exactly what you are going to do. If this tractor were mine I would put the head back on then do a compression test - wet and dry.

Also, if you think antifreeze got into the engine oil, I would do two fast oil and oil filter changes.

Eugene


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