Am I asking to much of the hydraulic system?

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TurboRoadster
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Am I asking to much of the hydraulic system?

Postby TurboRoadster » Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:30 pm

(67 cub low boy)
The reason I ask,
The cub is new to me and I thought I had fixed everything, but havent touched the hyd tank and screens yet. My guess is that it is in the condition the rest of the tractor was in when I got it, clogged and messy and not flowing enough fluid.
Heres the story:
I fabbed up a 3 point hitch and since the tractor hyd. picks up the belly mower fine I figured I could use it for a box blade. So I got a deal on a 6' box blade thinking I would cut it down to 4' if it was to much for the tractor.
I fabbed a boom and was going to use it to pick one end of the box blade and swing it around so I could then remove boom and back up to attach it to the tractor.
Well, with the 6' boom it wouldnt even lift one end of the box blade. with the box blade connected to the 3 point, it wouldnt even think about lifting the box up.
I have read where people are lifting stuff and trying to keep the front end down, mine would no where do that, so am I heavy enough to keep the tractor grounded with the big belly mower (I also have 150# of chains and such on the mower deck) and the box is just to much for the system, or if the box was to heavy, should the tractor have tried to lift the front if working properly?
Could it be the arm length on the rockshaft? I attached pictures but if I make an arm that would attach to the upper rockshaft point on the front and then make the rear rockshaft connection approx 5-6" higher than it is now, would that provide more ooomph?
Sound like the hyd isnt moving enough fluid ?

whew, thats a lot of questions. here are the pictures.

rockshaft front attach point, should I be using the other?
rockshaft front.jpg


rockshaft small arm connection, should I make it taller?
rockshaft stub.jpg


picture of whole thing
armlift1.jpg

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Re: Am I asking to much of the hydraulic system?

Postby CapeCodCubs » Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:42 pm

I have an 8 foot wide peg tooth harrow that everyone says is too big and heavy to lift but I can. I also have a very heavy Lienbach fast hitch rake that is very heavy and I have problem lifting that and I don't have the helper spring attached.

Have you tried bleeding the system? Pretty easy to do
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Re: Am I asking to much of the hydraulic system?

Postby TurboRoadster » Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:54 pm

CapeCodCubs wrote:I have an 8 foot wide peg tooth harrow that everyone says is too big and heavy to lift but I can. I also have a very heavy Lienbach fast hitch rake that is very heavy and I have problem lifting that and I don't have the helper spring attached.

Have you tried bleeding the system? Pretty easy to do


I drained the system when I did the clutch 2 weeks ago, should I burp it again? I filled and cycled it back and forth with the fill plug out.

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Re: Am I asking to much of the hydraulic system?

Postby ricky racer » Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:05 pm

Tim,

The weak link in the Cub hydraulics is the Cub hydraulics. Adding a 6 ft. "extension" to the rock shaft really cuts down the amount it will lift. Directly behind the tractor it will pick up around 300 lbs. with the amount decreasing as you move the weight further away from the tractor. Below is a post from my Cheap and Dirty Boom Lift build, in which I did a little experimenting with lift capabilities.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=69866&hilit=+cheap

Close to the back of the tractor, my boom easily lifted 2 rear weights, about 300#.

Image

About half down the length of the boom, it easily picked up 1 rear weight, about 150#.

Image

Out to the end it wouldn't pick up a rear weight but I put a scale on it and measured the amount of lift and recorded around 130#.

Image

Image

It is a good tool for helping save your back. I use mine for picking up all kinds of stuff but it does have it's limits.

Image

Image

Image

If you hook it up to something that you think it should lift and it won't, help it by picking up on the boom. You'd be surprised how much more it will lift if you pick up on the boom to help it out. If you get it up, the Cub hydraulics will hold it there just fine. :wink:
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Re: Am I asking to much of the hydraulic system?

Postby TurboRoadster » Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:27 pm

ricky racer wrote:Tim,

The weak link in the Cub hydraulics is the Cub hydraulics. Adding a 6 ft. "extension" to the rock shaft really cuts down the amount it will lift. Directly behind the tractor it will pick up around 300 lbs. with the amount decreasing as you move the weight further away from the tractor. Below is a post from my Cheap and Dirty Boom Lift build, in which I did a little experimenting with lift capabilities.

http://www.farmallcub.com/phpBB2/viewto ... lit=+cheap

Close to the back of the tractor, my boom easily lifted 2 rear weights, about 300#.

Image

About half down the length of the boom, it easily picked up 1 rear weight, about 150#.

Image

Out to the end it wouldn't pick up a rear weight but I put a scale on it and measured the amount of lift and recorded around 130#.

Image

Image

It is a good tool for helping save your back. I use mine for picking up all kinds of stuff but it does have it's limits.

Image

Image

Image

If you hook it up to something that you think it should lift and it won't, help it by picking up on the boom. You'd be surprised how much more it will lift if you pick up on the boom to help it out. If you get it up, the Cub hydraulics will hold it there just fine. :wink:


This is exactly the data I was looking for! I appreciate you sharing that. I'm pretty sure I can lift 300# with the spreader bar and I knew it would decrease with the boom. I wish I knew what the box blade I have weighs, I know its heavy enough I cant budge it around with my 165# ass.
I think I will make the rockshaft arm a bit longer for a smidge more leverage advantage. I also will definitely cut the 6' box down to a 4' box or maybe advertise it on craigslist for trade fr a 4' and see how that goes first.

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Re: Am I asking to much of the hydraulic system?

Postby ricky racer » Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:30 pm

Another thought. It sounds like you are picking up your mower deck with the extra weight of the chains on it while you are trying to pick up the box blade. If that's true, you're reducing the amount of lift available at the lift boom by picking up all the extra weight.
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Re: Am I asking to much of the hydraulic system?

Postby TurboRoadster » Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:46 pm

ricky racer wrote:Another thought. It sounds like you are picking up your mower deck with the extra weight of the chains on it while you are trying to pick up the box blade. If that's true, you're reducing the amount of lift available at the lift boom by picking up all the extra weight.

already thought of that and made a chain thing that holds the mower deck up and the lifting chain then has slack to allow the rear to work w/o affecting the deck.

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Re: Am I asking to much of the hydraulic system?

Postby Jim Becker » Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:15 pm

Unclear which arm you intend to lengthen. Try swapping these to each other's attachment points on the lower lift arms. See how much difference it makes without changing anything else.

swap.jpg

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Re: Am I asking to much of the hydraulic system?

Postby TurboRoadster » Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:24 pm

Jim Becker wrote:Unclear which arm you intend to lengthen. Try swapping these to each other's attachment points on the lower lift arms. See how much difference it makes without changing anything else.

swap.jpg


great idea! thanks and the arm is the short red arm of the rockshaft that connects to the long rod that runs up front, I can easily make a bracket that would grab when bolted on and add 4-5" of leverage, maybe also use the top point on the front lift arm of the hyd unit.

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Re: Am I asking to much of the hydraulic system?

Postby Jim Becker » Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:56 pm

TurboRoadster wrote:. . . the arm is the short red arm of the rockshaft that connects to the long rod that runs up front, I can easily make a bracket that would grab when bolted on and add 4-5" of leverage . . .

I thought that might be the one you had in mind. Lengthening it will definitely give more lift force (but cost lift distance).

TurboRoadster wrote:. . . maybe also use the top point on the front lift arm of the hyd unit.

That will reduce the load it can lift.

It would help a bunch if you can get a helper spring assembly for a Fast-Hitch.

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Re: Am I asking to much of the hydraulic system?

Postby Smokeycub » Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:19 am

TurboRoadster wrote: I wish I knew what the box blade I have weighs


Depending on the brand - anywhere from 400 to 500 pounds. Agree with the others, increasing the leverage points will help but you'll sacrifice some lifting distance. A spring assist would also help. ...or like I mentioned in your other post, a dedicated lift cylinder for your 3-point.
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Re: Am I asking to much of the hydraulic system?

Postby TurboRoadster » Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:23 am

Smokeycub wrote:
TurboRoadster wrote: I wish I knew what the box blade I have weighs


Depending on the brand - anywhere from 400 to 500 pounds. Agree with the others, increasing the leverage points will help but you'll sacrifice some lifting distance. A spring assist would also help. ...or like I mentioned in your other post, a dedicated lift cylinder for your 3-point.


I could tap into the hydraulic system and it would power a separate cylinder better than it works with itself?
I can get a valve and hoses, buy a cylinder if it would make that much of a difference.

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Re: Am I asking to much of the hydraulic system?

Postby Smokeycub » Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:55 am

Tapping into a Cub's hydraulics isn't straight forward but is easily done. There are many posts about that process. Here's one link, viewtopic.php?f=1&t=73014&hilit=hydraulic+bypass I believe it's covered in the "How To" section as well.
TurboRoadster wrote:I could tap into the hydraulic system and it would power a separate cylinder better than it works with itself?

If your hydraulics will generate 1500 psi then the only real limitation will be the size of the cylinder you use. A 2" cylinder has approx. 3.14 sq. in of surface area on which you can apply 1500 psi. A 2 1/2" cylinder has almost 5 sq. in. of surface area. I'm not sure what size the TC cylinder is inside the block, I believe it's 1 1/2" or less. Do the math. Minus mechanical losses (mechanical disadvantage - if you will) I believe it will lift much more than the rock shaft system.
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Re: Am I asking to much of the hydraulic system?

Postby TurboRoadster » Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:20 pm

I love this forum, thanks everybody.
Today I fabbed up a bracket/arm that is 4" longer leverage for the rear rockshaft and relocated the rockshaft rod itself to the 2" lower point on the front RS assembly arm. should do much better, I still have to relocate the lower arm mounting points for the lifting arms like shown earlier, all of this should put me in the 4' box blade range easy enough. I will update as I go along.
Thanks again

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Re: Am I asking to much of the hydraulic system?

Postby ScottyD'sdad » Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:20 pm

Remember, you're dealing with a tractor that's half the horsepower of the average modern lawn tractor. It's bigger, but still only about 10 hp, it's not a bulldozer!
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