Installing valve keeps

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ScottyD'sdad
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Re: Installing valve keeps

Postby ScottyD'sdad » Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:02 am

Winfield Dave wrote:
inairam wrote:I first adjusted the values to .013 per manual and after more reading of old posts re adjusted to .015. Another compression check and number three is still low but now I know it is not the valves.
What is low?


Compression on the one that had the missing keeper.
Ed
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Re: Installing valve keeps

Postby Winfield Dave » Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:52 am

ScottyD'sdad wrote:
Winfield Dave wrote:
inairam wrote:I first adjusted the values to .013 per manual and after more reading of old posts re adjusted to .015. Another compression check and number three is still low but now I know it is not the valves.
What is low?
Compression on the one that had the missing keeper.
Ed
What is "Low" compression as compared to the other 3?
Dave
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inairam
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Re: Installing valve keeps

Postby inairam » Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:53 am

100-110 on the others 50-60 on #3
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Re: Installing valve keeps

Postby Matt Kirsch » Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:23 pm

Ok so the next likely culprit is valve damage due to the missing keeper. Time to pull the head.

inairam
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1965 lo-boy with c-3 mower 12 v - Loboy
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130 with international 1000 loader 6 v
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Terramite T-6 4WD Backhoe Perkins diesel
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Re: Installing valve keeps

Postby inairam » Sun Jul 03, 2016 1:17 pm

Ok so I pulled the head - first timer did not break any bolts!!! :{_}: - and this is what I found see photos.

To me from the gasket it looks as if #3 was leaking a little to 2& 4. Could the head bolts in the middle not been tight enough? I did not find evidenace of a copper sealant that many members recommend but I did find some of the bolts holes appear to have some type of silicone or RTV like materal.


The cylinders all have a bit of a lip at the top but no other signs of cracks or other problems. I cleaned of the head and the pistons. I did not remove the valves yet. I have a valve kit on its way and I have the head gaskets and the sealent for the bolts and the even some grade 9 bolts cut to length. So when the valve come I am ready to put them back together.

Is there a way to test the rings at this point or do I just lap the valves and put the head back on and do a compression test? I trying to decide how far I have to go to get it back into service.
Attachments
20160703_113933.png
gasket
head.png
head
2-3-4.png
2,3,4 close up
head-off.png
head off all 4 cylinders
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Re: Installing valve keeps

Postby Eugene » Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:25 pm

inairam wrote:Is there a way to test the rings at this point or do I just lap the valves and put the head back on and do a compression test? I trying to decide how far I have to go to get it back into service.
In order to test the ring end gap you will need to pull the pistons, remove a ring. Then insert the ring in the cylinder and measure the end gap.

My opinion. If you are going to check the ring gap, might as well do a complete rebuild.
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Re: Installing valve keeps

Postby Jim Becker » Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:51 am

inairam wrote:. . . The cylinders all have a bit of a lip at the top but no other signs of cracks or other problems. . . .

You know you found/fixed a problem on #3 with the valve job. You indicate all cylinders about the same on wear ("all have a bit"). All but #3 seemed satisfactory before the repairs started. If the ridge/lip is barely big enough to catch a finger nail, I'd leave it alone. Check the head for flatness with a straight edge. Finish the valve job and put it together. The only downside is potential cost of another head gasket if it does prove to need ring/bearing work.

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Re: Installing valve keeps

Postby Clark Thompson » Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:39 am

first thing is the missing keeper would not cause a compression issue on that cylinder. From the pictures I see some sever pitting. This pitting is probably on the valve seat in the engine block. Since you have already gotten a valve kit you will have to have the seats in the block ground properly. Lapping in valves is only a half A..way to fix a greater problem, I have yet to see a cub engine not need a proper valve job!. I cant tell from the picture if the pitting is on the seats in the block or not. But you may have to have the seats replaced by a engine machine shop. A machine shop would require the block to be stripped of internals to properly cut the old seats out and press in the new seats.. Lapping in the valves is only a good thing to do when you have new valve seats and valves or properly REFACED VALVES AND SEATS. This insures a good seal. I would also check the valve guides. New valves in old guides can be a problem but not always.If your going through all this trouble to insure a good valve train then it would be silly not to go through the rest of the engine.
Collector of Farmall cubs and cub cadets.Injoy helping people keep their cubs running. Years of experipnce.

inairam
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Tractors Owned: 1948 6v - Dozer
1949 with kub klipper belly mower. mag 6v - Mom
1950 with plow, 54 blade, mott mag 6v - Roxanne
1953 54 blade, c22, wood 42 6v
1957 6v - barn Queen
1965 lo-boy with c-3 mower 12 v - Loboy
1974 Horse II 12 v c-2
1975 with woods 42-6 12 v - Horse
1979 long strip 12 v stuck engine
130 with international 1000 loader 6 v
1969 140 with bush hog tow behind mower 12 v
Terramite T-6 4WD Backhoe Perkins diesel
Memberships: Rough and Tumble Engineers Historical Association;Chapter 8 IH Collectors; IH Collectors Worldwide
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Re: Installing valve keeps

Postby inairam » Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:25 pm

Most of what was in the previous pictures was carbon, not pitting. Here are the some images with the valves out of the block. I found an engine shop near work and the owner said he has worked on a number of c-60s. Left the head and the new valves. His is going to shave the head for flatness and grinding the new valves.

I am optimistic the valve seats look good to me, but this is my first time this deep.The guides look ok to me so I am going to leave them in and replace the valves, the springs and the keeps. Have more cleaning to do while I wait for the machine shop to finish.

By the way I want to AERA Engine Builders Association web site - member locator page http://www.aera.org/member-locator.html to find this shop. After we got done with the valves and head, I asked him what is would cost two to do a complete rebuild and he said off the top of his head he said over $3k. That is dropping off an engine, they will tear down, machining, parts, assembly and picking up an engine assembled. Of course he would do some subset of the work but for the complete job that was quick number. He said his cost of machine time and labor is the same for the c60 as for larger engines. I have read many posts asking the question about the cost of a rebuild and I thought I would share this info.
Attachments
valve-sets-cyl--3-&-4.png
valves seats for cylinder 3 & 4
valves.png
valves and springs
blocknovolves.png
Block no valves
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Re: Installing valve keeps

Postby Clark Thompson » Sun Jul 10, 2016 8:25 pm

3K is a Pretty steep price for a total rebuild. Usually the worse case scenario I have ever seen was $1800.00
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ScottyD'sdad
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Re: Installing valve keeps

Postby ScottyD'sdad » Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:04 am

Clark Thompson wrote:3K is a Pretty steep price for a total rebuild. Usually the worse case scenario I have ever seen was $1800.00


I PM'ed him a similar response.
Ed
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Re: Installing valve keeps

Postby Bob McCarty » Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:34 am

I think the 3K was an estimate, but I agree that it's high.

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Jim Becker
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Re: Installing valve keeps

Postby Jim Becker » Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:12 am

That is probably reasonable for a complete rebuild from tear-down to reassembly. Rarely is a complete rebuild done and we tend to forget the labor costs beyond machine work.

Clark Thompson
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Tractors Owned: I own a 1950 cub demo, 1948 farmall cub, 1944 International I-9, a 1976 internationl cub, a 1975 international cub with fast hitch roleover plow and disc. a 1962 JD-440 dozer with 253 detroit, a 1952 JD-B, a 1979 international 3200 skid loader, a 1957 international S-160 truck, a 1929 Mccormic deering 10-20, a 1952 case S0 tractor. a pennsylvaning meteor rgarden tractor and sevrial cub cadets.
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Re: Installing valve keeps

Postby Clark Thompson » Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:24 pm

I do a total rebuild with the labor to remove engine clean all parts machine shop, new internals and assembly and installing it back in tractor for way less than 3 K. :tractor:
Collector of Farmall cubs and cub cadets.Injoy helping people keep their cubs running. Years of experipnce.

inairam
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Posts: 2279
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:24 am
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Tractors Owned: 1948 6v - Dozer
1949 with kub klipper belly mower. mag 6v - Mom
1950 with plow, 54 blade, mott mag 6v - Roxanne
1953 54 blade, c22, wood 42 6v
1957 6v - barn Queen
1965 lo-boy with c-3 mower 12 v - Loboy
1974 Horse II 12 v c-2
1975 with woods 42-6 12 v - Horse
1979 long strip 12 v stuck engine
130 with international 1000 loader 6 v
1969 140 with bush hog tow behind mower 12 v
Terramite T-6 4WD Backhoe Perkins diesel
Memberships: Rough and Tumble Engineers Historical Association;Chapter 8 IH Collectors; IH Collectors Worldwide
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: Glen Mills PA

Re: Installing valve keeps

Postby inairam » Sat Jul 30, 2016 5:17 pm

An update. I got the valves and head back from the machine shop. They said they needed to take off 0.015 to get it flat. I decide to invest in Neway cutters. I sent them the specs for the valves out of the manual and they recommended cutters 122 126 111. They were very easy to use. You have to adjust the cutters in for the 60 degree cut and out for the 30 degree cut, but they give you the tool to do it. I lapped the valves and seats.

I was then back to my original problem of the keepers.

I happened to stop by a mechanic in my neighborhood to look at C2A jeep in the lot. It was a basket case, but I asked him about Cubs and he said he used to work on them. I told him about the keeper and he went straight to his tool box and took out and K&D 608.
kd-608.png
K&D 608
A tool made for this. I took a photo and when i got home starting looking on ebay. I could not find the 608 but found the 607
kd607a.png
607 and spring contress
same idea but with magnets instead of springs on the 608. I also saw another spring compression also from K&D and got that.

Once I got the technique down it went much easier to get the keepers in with the right tools. Still used grease to help hold the keepers in the tool. The K&D 607 is small enough to stay holding the keepers while the spring compression tool is released. this gave me a better chance to seat the keepers even if I had to use a screw driver to push them up.

The valves are in the block and the head is going on tomorrow. [attachment=2]/attachment]
Attachments
valvesinblock.png
When you only have 9 horsepower you need to know the names of all of the ponies!


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