bozos with welders

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Teakettle
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bozos with welders

Postby Teakettle » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:53 am

Ran across another example of bozos who shouldn't be allowed near welders. Working on a Cub and need to remove a front spindle. Looking closely, I see a small bead of weld -- all the way around -- attaching the knuckle arm to the top of the spindle. No obvious way to take it off that won't destroy both the spindle and the arm. Why, why, why?

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Re: bozos with welders

Postby tmays » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:13 am

Quite common
Thomas

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Re: bozos with welders

Postby John *.?-!.* cub owner » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:14 am

I have seen that a number of times where the set screw had broken and wouldn't stay tight, and owner did not know it was a special pointed set screw. Not really a problem if it is lined up right, because it is seldom a necessity to remove the spindle. To get it off get some cutoff wheels for a hand grinder, but remember they are thin and not designed for a lot of side pressure. Some of the steel cut off wheel they are making now might work good, but I have not tried them. Go to work grinding the weld out with the cut off wheel, and go slow and careful. Remember, patience is a virtue. The worse the welder was the easier it will be because it probably will not have as much penetration. I have seen them that once they were cleaned up and painted you could not tell they were ever welded. I have also seen the top of the shaft cutoff flush with the knuckle to get rid of the weld. The only thing I know of that uses the top part of the shaft is the steering mechanism on a 151 disk plow, and it only uses the right one. If you decide to cut it off, remember it needs a very slight taper on the end to guide it through the bushings in the knee when reinstalling.
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Re: bozos with welders

Postby Mike in Louisiana » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:15 am

Very common fix but not the correct way to do it.
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Re: bozos with welders

Postby Matt Kirsch » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:24 am

Here are some perfectly valid reasons:

Because it's way cheaper than a new steering knuckle, arm, and set screw, and the owner needs the tractor, but can not afford the proper repair parts.

Because it's way quicker than waiting 2-3 days for the local dealer to get the proper repair parts in when there is crop in the fields that needs to be brought in.

Because it's just a putzing around the yard tractor and its value does not justify the cost of the proper repair parts.

Because proper repair parts were already installed, and didn't fix the problem.

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Re: bozos with welders

Postby Waif » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:52 am

I was just admiring the welded knuckle arms on mine too.
There might be a key in there too that was sheared?
Patient grinding as mentioned will open the weld bead.

My tractor might not have been the most abused in it's former life , but it sure is in the running!
The quality of chicken poop welds and patches after who knows what broke it before made replacing the broken tranny tube a priority. Less of a pucker factor now.

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Re: bozos with welders

Postby cub&catman » Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:27 pm

I agree with what Matt said. I get tired of hearing about the P.O. owner how he done stuff with HIS OWN MACHINERY ! I T WAS HIS TO DO WITH WHAT AND HOW HE WANTED. It was used to farm with and make a living the best he could. Now all the urban "farmers" want to have trailer queens to brag about.

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Re: bozos with welders

Postby John *.?-!.* cub owner » Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:02 pm

Waif wrote:I was just admiring the welded knuckle arms on mine too.
There might be a key in there too that was sheared?
Patient grinding as mentioned will open the weld bead.......
The ones that used a key had a bolt that tightened a clamp around the shaft. I have seen a few of them with the key partly sheared, but they are easily fixed, and have never seen one that was welded. Many people do not realize that the ones with the bolt going straight in have a special set screw with a point on it, and it needs to be kept 'VERY tight. Here is a picture from TM Tractors website.
Image
Note, there are 3 versions of this bolt. Hex head with fine threads and hex head with coarse threads and square head with coarse threads. So be sure to get the one you need.

The problem was that no one ever thought to tighten those bolts, and they would work loose and eventually break the point off. The owner would look at it thinking it was a normal setscrew and tighten it down, which would only help for a while. The correct repair was to remove the knuckle, which could be a challenge since sometimes a little piece if the broken point would be sticking out into the hole, and that bolt and point are very hard, so drilling that out was difficult, a small diamond burr in a Dremel would usually work though. Once the spindle was off and the grease wiped off the shaft there is a small hole on the backside that a punch can be inserted in and tap the broken point out. The first one I repaired I did not wipe the grease off, so I did not know about the hole on the back and tried unsuccessfully to drill and tap the remaining point so I could insert a screw and pull it out. I finally turned the knee so I could slide the shaft out of the tube and take it to a friends machine shop and in doing so it wiped enough grease off I could see the hole on the back. After calling myself a few names I will not repeat here I tapped the broken point out and put it all back together.
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Re: bozos with welders

Postby Teakettle » Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:15 pm

Look, our tractors are hardly trailer queens, they're working tractors, but even when cash was really tight I could never bring myself to do certain rude hack jobs as repairs -- experience showed that someday some poor slob would have to deal with the problem again.

Old tractors, like old houses, often outlive their previous owners. There's some seriously bad karma associated with using a welder on things that will need to be serviced again someday (or if you absolutely must, just tack the darn thing, don't make a lump of metal the size of a golf ball), just like sawing 3/4 of the way through a joist, or plastering an extension cord inside a wall. Yes, it's your tractor or house and you can do whatever the heck you want, but please give a little consideration for the next fellow.

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Re: bozos with welders

Postby Super A » Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:39 pm

cub&catman wrote:I agree with what Matt said. I get tired of hearing about the P.O. owner how he done stuff with HIS OWN MACHINERY ! I T WAS HIS TO DO WITH WHAT AND HOW HE WANTED. It was used to farm with and make a living the best he could. Now all the urban "farmers" want to have trailer queens to brag about.



I agree. It's easy to criticize the actions of others, some of which took place 50 years ago. But as you say the previous/original owner was trying to make a living, and the tractor was considered a machine, not a collectors item.

When you're trying to get a crop in or out, the last thing you are worried about is the correct police!

I will say though I hate to see somebody mommick something "because it's just an old tractor." Cutting up sheet metal for 12 volt conversions comes tim mind.....

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Re: bozos with welders

Postby pickerandsinger » Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:18 pm

Also agree with Matt...and I like the comment, it was the mans tractor , he can do what he wants to do with it...Not trying to be irritable , its just the way it is...I doubt if anyone including Farmall and International thought these cubs would be around almost 70 years in some cases...When I come across Farmer fixes it makes me smile.......And then I fix them the way I want.....After all it is my tractor.... :D :D Dave ( If it sticks , turn it up...If it burns a hole , turn it down... :D :D )
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Re: bozos with welders

Postby Waif » Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:00 pm

cub&catman wrote:I agree with what Matt said. I get tired of hearing about the P.O. owner how he done stuff with HIS OWN MACHINERY ! I T WAS HIS TO DO WITH WHAT AND HOW HE WANTED. It was used to farm with and make a living the best he could. Now all the urban "farmers" want to have trailer queens to brag about.


I need a bigger trailer first.
Being a male ,my tractor will not be a queen. ( Nope ,not that kind either).
If I were a social butterfly enough it might go to a show. In it' s work cloths and mismatched castings and scars and bruises.

A queen in mint condition would be sweet!
Not sure if more would be done with it compared to my numerous p.o.s neglected one ,but still...

Nails for cotter pins ,alright. Plowing without a wear edge on the plow ,alright. No two tires alike ,alright.
Makin do , is makin do. Not a crime.
I don' t say much about some one else's equipment , till I'm the one taking care of it. One of us scratched their head more than the others.
Others shook their heads.
It's all part of old equipment and how or if it is maintained. :tractor:

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Re: bozos with welders

Postby Jim Becker » Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:02 pm

John *.?-!.* cub owner wrote:. . . The ones that used a key had a bolt that tightened a clamp around the shaft. I have seen a few of them with the key partly sheared, but they are easily fixed, and have never seen one that was welded. . . .

I have. This wasn't a farmer fix when somebody was trying to get a crop in either. It was almost certainly a maintenance worker at a hat factory where the tractor was used to mow the yard.
SteeringArm1s.jpg


SteeringArm2s.JPG


These sort of repairs are almost never due to a time crunch. It is just the way some people take care of their stuff. These are the same guys that never tighten a loose bolt and don't know what a grease gun is for. If it was a farmer, everyone else in the area knew who it was and usually tried to keep their distance.

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Re: bozos with welders

Postby Waif » Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:18 pm

John *.?-!.* cub owner wrote:
Waif wrote:I was just admiring the welded knuckle arms on mine too.
There might be a key in there too that was sheared?
Patient grinding as mentioned will open the weld bead.......
The ones that used a key had a bolt that tightened a clamp around the shaft. I have seen a few of them with the key partly sheared, but they are easily fixed, and have never seen one that was welded. Many people do not realize that the ones with the bolt going straight in have a special set screw with a point on it, and it needs to be kept 'VERY tight. Here is a picture from TM Tractors website.
Image
Note, there are 3 versions of this bolt. Hex head with fine threads and hex head with coarse threads and square head with coarse threads. So be sure to get the one you need.

The problem was that no one ever thought to tighten those bolts, and they would work loose and eventually break the point off. The owner would look at it thinking it was a normal setscrew and tighten it down, which would only help for a while. The correct repair was to remove the knuckle, which could be a challenge since sometimes a little piece if the broken point would be sticking out into the hole, and that bolt and point are very hard, so drilling that out was difficult, a small diamond burr in a Dremel would usually work though. Once the spindle was off and the grease wiped off the shaft there is a small hole on the backside that a punch can be inserted in and tap the broken point out. The first one I repaired I did not wipe the grease off, so I did not know about the hole on the back and tried unsuccessfully to drill and tap the remaining point so I could insert a screw and pull it out. I finally turned the knee so I could slide the shaft out of the tube and take it to a friends machine shop and in doing so it wiped enough grease off I could see the hole on the back. After calling myself a few names I will not repeat here I tapped the broken point out and put it all back together.

Interesting thanks.
Reminds of set screws for some replacement jobs with a more pointed seat. Prepped bottom of hole /shaft to compliment ...they can hold better.

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Re: bozos with welders

Postby Glen » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:10 pm

Hi,

IH changed to the clamp type steering arms, with the key in the shaft, at serial number 138485, which was during 1951. If someone replaced a front axle, a Cub could have the different type arms than it originally did, if the axle was a different age. :)


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