Crankshaft Seal Retainer~~Prototype~~

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Shane N.
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Crankshaft Seal Retainer~~Prototype~~

Postby Shane N. » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:34 am

Got started messing with an oil seal retainer prototype. Was thinking about making one out of steel and still may but I found a piece of 6061-T6 aluminum laying on the shelf and decided to use it for my prototype since it's easier to machine. Thanks to Rick Prentice for sending me a new retainer to measure and also an original seal, a larger seal and a snap ring just in-case. Got it drawn up and printed out to scale to make sure I didn't miss anything. Sawed the blank out so I can machine it. Got to write the program now and get a seal. I have a couple ideas about the seal etc. instead of using a factory one and they will show up soon when I get them figured out.
Attachments
Oil Seal Retainer.png
IMG_4480.jpg
IMG_4481.jpg
IMG_4476.jpg
IMG_4477.jpg
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Re: Crankshaft Seal Retainer~~Prototype~~

Postby Urbish » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:48 am

:thumbsup:
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Re: Crankshaft Seal Retainer~~Prototype~~

Postby ricky racer » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:29 am

Urbish wrote::thumbsup:

:Dito:
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Re: Crankshaft Seal Retainer~~Prototype~~

Postby Cubfriend » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:28 pm

May be the answer to our rear main seal leaks?
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Shane N.
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Re: Crankshaft Seal Retainer~~Prototype~~

Postby Shane N. » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:01 am

Picked up a seal. Here’s both sides of it.
Attachments
C6BD0877-BBB3-4278-B11B-43FCC80BE85E.jpeg
F600E541-16E2-419B-84BE-0FAFA49C871D.jpeg
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Re: Crankshaft Seal Retainer~~Prototype~~

Postby Landreo » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:27 pm

I approached a machine shop years ago but no one was interested, at least at a price that would compare favorably with the new retainers. Since a new retainer and the appropriate seal are still being made I saw no reason to continue to try to find a machine shop that would make the retainer. I then did some measurements and decided to just do the machining myself but it seemed like a lot of work for no real benefit compared to a new retainer. Years ago, on this forum, it was commonly stated that no rubber seals like the original were available. That points out the problems with lap dog or group think! No one took the time to look! The seals are still made and sold. I still have 3 sitting on a shelf.

One thing I did notice when measuring the retainer is that the holes and their spacing seems variable.To get accurate measurement I was going to have to take the measurements off of the engine block not the retainer. One issue with the retainer is that it is hard to align the seal retainer accurately since there are no locating pins on the retainer. Taking measurements from the engine block will give more accurate measurements especially compared to an old retainer.

All the information I could find as far as best practices recommends a rubber cased seal in aluminum with a bore of the size needed for a cub crankshaft. Aluminum is better than zinc as far as metal creep and thermal expansion but not a whole lot better. You still have to account and allow for those issues.

It looks like a good project, one that I abandoned years ago due to potential costs. The retainers can be machined but I think they would have to be able to compete with the roughly $180 cost of a new one. I was not able to do that. Hopefully you can. That will give some additional alternatives for those failing retainers and seals.

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Shane N.
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Sold Cubs..
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Re: Crankshaft Seal Retainer~~Prototype~~

Postby Shane N. » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:39 pm

Landreo, I’m just playing right now (kinda) I like a good challenge from time to time and sometimes I have to learn things the hard way. I’ve worked in this machine shop for over 22 years and am blessed that my boss lets me do what I do. He’s on board with this project and this prototype is just that and luckily I have a Cub I can try it out on, it’s leaking. The boss even said I can bring it to work and split it. I agree with you the retainer dimensions are all over the place and the block would give better measurements. We have acces to water jet so if it works we can have them blanked that way so the only 2 surfaces that need machining are the bore and the bottom where the oil pan bolts. We have 2 CNC milling machines and 2 CNC lathes in house. We also have a couple shops that do full CNC production work and can reach out to them as well. I’m hoping what I want to try works, if not I’ll try something else. This piece of material was in the scrap pile and I think there’s another as well.
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Shane N.
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Sold Cubs..
1947 Cub #1447 (Arnold)
1949 Cub (Walt)
1950 Cub (piece of junk)
1952 Cub
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: N.C.

Re: Crankshaft Seal Retainer~~Prototype~~

Postby Shane N. » Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:11 am

Machined the bottom and drilled/tapped the three oil pan holes.
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407BA2E8-F679-46F5-902C-B81EE58F4AA8.jpeg
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Re: Crankshaft Seal Retainer~~Prototype~~

Postby Landreo » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:10 pm

My standard to compare to is the original seal and seal retainer design, we know that worked for a long time, and I see no reason this should not work as well as and likely better than the original retainer if used with the correct seal. The expansion rate of aluminum is less than with the diecast zinc retainer and the creep is less so it should be somewhat better or a lot better in those respects. The expansion rate is still twice that of steel so that expansion rate may still be a problem. Like you, I do things just to see if it will work but if you or your company can produce an aluminum retainer for around the going rate of $180 for a new one then it would be a no brainer, just go with a new aluminum retainer.

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Shane N.
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Sold Cubs..
1947 Cub #1447 (Arnold)
1949 Cub (Walt)
1950 Cub (piece of junk)
1952 Cub
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Location: N.C.

Re: Crankshaft Seal Retainer~~Prototype~~

Postby Shane N. » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:25 pm

I may take that seal I purchased back, it's 3.000" bore X 3.751" O.D but it's a steel cased seal and go with an original for comparison reasons. One reason I went with the seal I purchased is it's a smaller O.D. and less material would have to be taken out not thinning the retainer. I intend to leave this prototype full thickness. Hopefully that will cut down on warp. I need to machine it and split my tractor to make sure there are no clearance issues.

Here's the original seal that Rick sent me, hard to tell from the photo but it has a visible "crown". I measured it in 3 places, top (away from spring), middle and bottom (spring side that faces oil) here's the measurements. I didn't put any pressure on the calipers, you can make it measure what you want with pressure but this is as close as I can get it.
Attachments
IMG_4542.jpg
Crown
IMG_4543.jpg
Top
IMG_4544.jpg
Middle
IMG_4545.jpg
Bottom
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Rick Prentice
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Re: Crankshaft Seal Retainer~~Prototype~~

Postby Rick Prentice » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:43 pm

Shane, here's a couple pics from TM's site showing the rear of the engine. Image, Image

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Shane N.
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1965 John Deere 110
1961 Cub Cadet Original

Sold Cubs..
1947 Cub #1447 (Arnold)
1949 Cub (Walt)
1950 Cub (piece of junk)
1952 Cub
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: N.C.

Re: Crankshaft Seal Retainer~~Prototype~~

Postby Shane N. » Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:05 pm

Thanks Rick, I found these 3 pictures of our '47 when I took it apart and washed it before rebuilding it. It looks like thickness won't be a problem. The oil pump sticks out as far as the retainer will at full thickness so hitting the flywheel shouldn't be a problem. I'm assuming IH made them thinner to save money on material when casting them?
Attachments
IMG_6328.JPG
IMG_6329.JPG
IMG_6330.JPG
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Shane N.
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1970 International 140 (Norman)
1972 International 140 (Keeferdoodle)
1949 John Deere A
1993 Ford 4630 W/Loader
1965 John Deere 110
1961 Cub Cadet Original

Sold Cubs..
1947 Cub #1447 (Arnold)
1949 Cub (Walt)
1950 Cub (piece of junk)
1952 Cub
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: N.C.

Re: Crankshaft Seal Retainer~~Prototype~~

Postby Shane N. » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:44 pm

This original rubber cased seal is a National brand #355526, I tried to find it on the web and it comes up nothing. I called the local parts store where I get seals and they said it has a new number, #417350 which is a steel cased seal and $9 higher than the one I purchased National #417349 with .125" smaller O.D. Wonder if the Case/IH place still carries the original seal? TM Tractor shows a steel cased seal for a crank seal. I have a National book and that is all it shows for that size seal as well.
Attachments
IMG_4582.jpg
IMG_4583.jpg
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Re: Crankshaft Seal Retainer~~Prototype~~

Postby Peter Person » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:59 pm

1957 Farmall Cub "Emory", Fast-Hitch, L-F194 Plow & Colter, L-38 Disc Harrow, Cub-54A Blade, Cub-22 Sickle Bar Mower, IH 100 Blade

Image

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Shane N.
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Tractors Owned: .
1970 International 140 (Norman)
1972 International 140 (Keeferdoodle)
1949 John Deere A
1993 Ford 4630 W/Loader
1965 John Deere 110
1961 Cub Cadet Original

Sold Cubs..
1947 Cub #1447 (Arnold)
1949 Cub (Walt)
1950 Cub (piece of junk)
1952 Cub
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: N.C.

Re: Crankshaft Seal Retainer~~Prototype~~

Postby Shane N. » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:24 am

Peter Person wrote:Shane,
The A.T.I.S. site references a CR 29887 in addition to the National 355526.
CR 29887 is still available;
https://www.kartek.com/parts/chicago-rawhide-cr-29887-usa-single-lip-seal-3-inside-diameter-3-78-outside-diameter-716-thick.html

SKF-29887:
https://www.amazon.com/SKF-29887-Small-CRWH1-Diameter/dp/B00CLIQCG0

SKF-29887 is steel cased as well.
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