SA cylinder bore

Farmall Super A, AV, 1939 - 1954

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SA cylinder bore

Postby mikeintn » Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:00 pm

I've just taken my SAV engine apart [restoring it] it has new pistons in it, I know it came with a 3 in. bore and I thought that they was replaced by the newer 3 1/8 in. bore, but this has 3.1/4 in. bore[3.250], does anyone know if they sell this size sleaves for them? before I put rings in it, I want to make sure that the sleaves are ok[not been bored to this and maybe to thin]. Any info. would be great. Mike
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Re: SA cylinder bore

Postby Eugene » Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:44 pm

From Valu-Bilt parts catalog. Engine overhaul kits.

A,B,C, Super A with C123 engine increased to 3-1/8"
Super C, 100, 200 with C123 engine increased to 3-1/4"
130, 140, 230, 240 with C123 engine 3-1/8" standard

Looks like a bit more research on your engine is required.
I have an excuse. CRS.
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Re: SA cylinder bore

Postby mikeintn » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:48 pm

It looks like it has the original engine in it, its a 1952 SAV and the serial no. on engine is just a little higher than the one on tractor, and it has FAAV on engine for a SAV tractor, soooo I think it should be the original 113 engine, just dont know what its doing with a 3 1/4 bore, somebody may come up with something. Thanks
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Re: SA cylinder bore

Postby Jim Becker » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:06 pm

What part number is your block? The later ones had the Super C block with the larger lower bore. It would take the 3 1/4 sleeves.
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Re: SA cylinder bore

Postby Stan_VA » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:36 pm

The engine blocks in the C113/C123 need to be identified by the lower sleeve OD at the O-rings sealing surface as far as knowing what sleeve kits will fit. The are two basic dimensions, either 3-5/16 or 3-7/16. Original block for the C and Super A is 251069 (this is the casting number behind the oil filter); the Super C, late Super A, Super A-1, 100 and 200 used 354898; the 130/230 used 366204 and the 140/240 used 367825.

The 251069 block has 3-5/16" sleeve OD (at the O-ring) and originally had standard thickness sleeve and 3" bore (C-113). The aftermarket overbore kits are thin sleeve with 3-1/8" bore (which gets you 123 inches).

The 354898 block was introduced in mid '51 with the Super C and Super A tractors above serial number 310,300. It has 3-7/16" sleeve OD and came in two standard configurations: 1- standard sleeve with 3-1/8" bore (C-123 in the Super C) (and Super A-1 in 1954); or 2- thick sleeve and 3" bore (C-113 in late Super A). The aftermarket overbore kits are thin sleeve with 3-1/4" bore (which gets you 133 inches).

The 130/140 and 230/240 tractors came with a C-123 that used the thin sleeve 3-1/8" piston/sleeve set from the factory (3-1/8" bore and 3-5/16" sleeve OD). The aftermarket kits are the same as the 251069 that maintain the 3-1/8 bore.

So... if your Super A was built after 1951 it should accept the 3-1/4 overbore kits. Only caution is to try and spec the head gasket from the 3-1/8" kits as it has larger water jacket openings, as used in the A/B/C or early Super A tractors that didn't have a water pump, while most of the 3-1/4 kits go in the Super C/100/200 which did have water pumps and smaller water jacket openings to restrict the flow. If you added a pump to your tractor (or have the Super A-1 from 1954), then you're ok with the Super C head gasket.
Hope some of that helps.
52 Super M, 53 Super H, 52 Super C, Wheel horse C101, JD 140.
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Re: SA cylinder bore

Postby mikeintn » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:53 am

Stan that is alot of good infomation, so I check mine it is the 354898 block, serial no. of tractor is 324695, engine no. is 326189 FAAV, makes them both 1952, soooo I would think that it is the original engine, right.

But I did not know that they put the 123 in them then, I had read that they first showed up in 1954 in the SA A-1, but I see thats not the case.

So now I feel better knowing that it wasnt bore from the 113 [ 3 in.] to the 3 1/4, so I guess alls good.

So on the water pump and head gasket, it does have a water pump, is that correct? like to know if thats the way it would have came.

Checking the bottom of the sleeve in the block looks like its about 0.100 thick.

And you are right Jim. Thanks Mike
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Re: SA cylinder bore

Postby Jim Becker » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:37 am

Stan_VA wrote:The 354898 block was introduced in mid '51 with the Super C and Super A tractors above serial number 310,300. It has 3-7/16" sleeve OD and came in two standard configurations: 1- standard sleeve with 3-1/8" bore (C-123 in the Super C) (and Super A-1 in 1954); or 2- thick sleeve and 3" bore (C-113 in late Super A). The aftermarket overbore kits are thin sleeve with 3-1/4" bore (which gets you 133 inches).

Mike,
Your engine clearly falls into this group. It would have left the factory with the 3" bore for 113 ci and has had the overbore 3-1/4 installed some time in the past. The water pump was added somewhere along the line, probably either with or after the overbore. The factory didn't put water pumps on the Super A until they started using the 3-1/8 pistons on the Super A1. Be sure to use the head gasket with the smaller water passage opnings.
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Re: SA cylinder bore

Postby mikeintn » Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:04 pm

Thanks Jim, let me say this I guess I went brain dead when I said it has a water pump, it does not, its been like a year when I took it apart, they been to many sence then, ALLIS C and Cockshutt 20, buuut I think I got it now.

Which ones came with the wet sleeves?
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Re: SA cylinder bore

Postby Jim Becker » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:30 pm

The 113, 123 and 135 were all wet sleeve.
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Re: SA cylinder bore

Postby mikeintn » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:53 pm

I guess the guy at the mechine shop told me wrong, he said it was a dry sheeve when I drop it of to clean the block.

This is interesting does anyone know why they made the thick and thin wall sleeves, looks like it would have been simplier to put the 3 1/8 bore in both after they changed the block in mid 1951, was the thick walls put in the ones without water pumps, thinking they would run hot? any thoughts.
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