Super A Overheating...Radiator...Water Pump??

Farmall Super A, AV, 100, 130, & 140 1939 - 1973

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Dale Finch
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Super A Overheating...Radiator...Water Pump??

Postby Dale Finch » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:17 pm

I am having a problem with my '48 SA. :( After mowing with a Woods 59 for a couple hours (hot day around 90+ degrees), it begins to overheat. I know the radiator will "find its own level", as do my cubs. However, this is different. I will see some steam coming from behind the radiator, and when I shut it down, the steam just billows out. (Not sure of the origin, though) Subsides after about 30 seconds.

This happened a few times, and I have been thinking about it for a while, coming up with two trains of thought as to the cause. Actually, it could be both problems, as well!

First, I did have the radiator repaired at a radiator shop. It had a leak and was packed with years of "stuff" in the cooling fins. The shop repaired, cleaned, tested and painted it. I felt they did a rather poor job of getting the fins cleaned out, though. Could that be causing the overheating? Or could there be another leak that only shows up after everything gets up in temperature?

My second concern resulted when I went back to refresh my memory as to whether this engine was supposed to have a water pump. (It does NOT have one on it now.) I KNEW that one of the two engines I had to choose from did have a pump on it, but couldn't remember if this one did. After some research, I understand that ALL C123 engines had water pumps. Well, in my photos below of the "Disassembly", here is the engine I used, and as you can see, it did NOT have a pump on it. It is stamped a C123 Engine with NO Serial Number. One question, where did this engine come from with no Serial Number?

The larger question, would this cause the overheating, and do I NEED to put a pump on it?

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Since my 3 Cubs are (almost) all well, it is time for me to get to work on this! Any help would be appreciated.

Also, if anyone wants to come to Chapel Hill for a Super A manifest, ( :beer: ) I will be working on this as well as troubleshooting the Touch Control. I am having an issue with slow response and "bleeding" down and plan to go through the long procedure in the manual, now that a VERY kind forum member loaned me the pressure gauge I needed!!!

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Re: Super A Overheating...Radiator...Water Pump??

Postby havoc1482 » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:34 pm

Wait, why does your 48 SA have a C123? They didn't get the C123 until the Super A-1 which was the holdover for the 100. Should be the C113. If its a C123 then it should have a water pump on it.

My 48 SA does the same thing you describe though. It will boil-over a bit, and the steam coming from behind the radiator is coming from the small drain tube running down the left side of the radiator.
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Re: Super A Overheating...Radiator...Water Pump??

Postby Eugene » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:46 pm

Flush the block. Thermosyphon cooling systems build up sediment in the bottom of the cooling system and around the cylinders.
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Re: Super A Overheating...Radiator...Water Pump??

Postby TWheat » Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:58 am

Dale,
I don't remember the history on this SA , but just a reminder that if you replaced the head gasket, the thermosyphon system head gasket has larger water jacket holes than the water pump system head gasket. So if you are have a" water pump gasket" on an engine relying on the thermosyphon system, that could cause enough coolant restriction to overheat.
Tim

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Dale Finch
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Re: Super A Overheating...Radiator...Water Pump??

Postby Dale Finch » Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:40 am

TWheat wrote:Dale,
I don't remember the history on this SA , but just a reminder that if you replaced the head gasket, the thermosyphon system head gasket has larger water jacket holes than the water pump system head gasket. So if you are have a" water pump gasket" on an engine relying on the thermosyphon system, that could cause enough coolant restriction to overheat.
Tim

I discovered this while researching this subject...a tad too late I guess! However, I had done nothing to the engine. I simply swapped it from one '48 to the one that had the better chassis and a broken crankshaft. Obviously, the engine had been changed out at some point in time (on both tractors) since they were both C123 engines. But only the one with the broken crankshaft had a pump on it.

My worry is that when the PO replaced the C113 that came with a '48 SA (with NO water pump), he did not add a water pump AND it has the more restrictive head gasket, increasing the chance of overheating. So I guess the only solution is to add a pump?, regardless of whether or not it has the larger bore gasket (for thermosyphon C113)

Another item I came across and don't know the answer to: is the FAN pulley on the "pump" engine a different diameter? One post made a comment about that, but I haven't checked the parts manual yet.

Anyone have a pump for sale? Unfortunately, I SOLD the pump that was on the broken engine (of course!)!!!

Eugene wrote:Flush the block. Thermosyphon cooling systems build up sediment in the bottom of the cooling system and around the cylinders.

I will definitely be doing this, too!! Thanks!

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Re: Super A Overheating...Radiator...Water Pump??

Postby Don McCombs » Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:24 am

Lots of pumps for sale on eBay.
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Re: Super A Overheating...Radiator...Water Pump??

Postby Super A » Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:38 am

Dale if you want a used pump I think I have one in a five gallon bucket of bits and pieces somewhere. It does not have many hours of use on it.

All you need to do is remove the lower elbow going into the engine and bolt the pump on, and then get a longer fan belt.

I think you need to flush the block as previously recommended and make sure the radiator is good and clean.

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Re: Super A Overheating...Radiator...Water Pump??

Postby Jim Becker » Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:15 am

Dale Finch wrote: So I guess the only solution is to add a pump?, regardless of whether or not it has the larger bore gasket (for thermosyphon C113)

No, if you have the head gasket with large holes, a water pump will probably overcool the front of the engine.

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Re: Super A Overheating...Radiator...Water Pump??

Postby Dale Finch » Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:06 am

Jim Becker wrote:
Dale Finch wrote: So I guess the only solution is to add a pump?, regardless of whether or not it has the larger bore gasket (for thermosyphon C113)

No, if you have the head gasket with large holes, a water pump will probably overcool the front of the engine.

So to do this right, I need to remove the head, replace the gasket with the small-holed one for a pump, and add the pump. Even if I confirm it HAD the small-holed one, I will have ruined it getting the head off.

Just did a parts research, and though the early C113 engines had a different hub (pulley) than the C123, the later ones were the same on both the C113 and C123. I will check to see if I can confirm I have the one that works for both...hope so! I do still have both fans, so you would think that the engine that did have the pump, would have had the correct fan...hmmm...we'll see! Hope there is a number on it somewhere!

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Re: Super A Overheating...Radiator...Water Pump??

Postby Dale Finch » Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:33 am

Quick question: while looking in the parts manual, I noticed the C123 engine had a thermostat (in the water outlet). Should I check to see whether I have one, and if not, do I need to/can I add one? Am I right in thinking the thermostat will help get the engine up to operating temperature quicker, since the pump would start right off circulating ("cooling") the water, keeping the temp down too long?

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Re: Super A Overheating...Radiator...Water Pump??

Postby TWheat » Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:24 pm

Since you don't know what all has been done in the past, I would see if it has a thermostat and if it has one , take it out and put it in a pan of water on the stove and make sure it is working. If it has one and it is not opening that would sure add to it running hot.
I don't run a thermostat in my SAs, one of which is thermosyphoning and one which has a water pump, but I am in South FL. and getting them warmed up is not a problem. However I wanted to check the cooling system on a new re-build and I fastened a large piece of cardboard to the front of the radiator just to speed things up.

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Re: Super A Overheating...Radiator...Water Pump??

Postby Dale Finch » Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:03 pm

TWheat wrote:Since you don't know what all has been done in the past, I would see if it has a thermostat and if it has one , take it out and put it in a pan of water on the stove and make sure it is working. If it has one and it is not opening that would sure add to it running hot.

Hadn't thought about the thermostat (IF installed) NOT opening...another possibility. Sounds like a good recommendation...thanks!

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Re: Super A Overheating...Radiator...Water Pump??

Postby havoc1482 » Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:58 pm

Jim, overcooling? I'm curious, I've never heard of that before. How is it a negative? Oil doesn't warm up correctly and causes issues?
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Re: Super A Overheating...Radiator...Water Pump??

Postby Super A » Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:04 pm

Dale Finch wrote:
TWheat wrote:Since you don't know what all has been done in the past, I would see if it has a thermostat and if it has one , take it out and put it in a pan of water on the stove and make sure it is working. If it has one and it is not opening that would sure add to it running hot.

Hadn't thought about the thermostat (IF installed) NOT opening...another possibility. Sounds like a good recommendation...thanks!


The thermostat is in the upper water neck, the same casting the fan hub mounts to. They also had a place for a temp. gauge to screw into. From the pics, I would say you don't have a thermostat.

The way most Super A's I have seen in this part of the world were converted to water pumps was they simply removed the lower neck going into the block, and attached a water pump from a Super C/Super A1/100/200/130/230. They didn't worry about the head gasket, adding a thermostat, etc. Yes they ran cool until they were worked hard.

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Re: Super A Overheating...Radiator...Water Pump??

Postby Jim Becker » Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:05 pm

havoc1482 wrote:Jim, overcooling? I'm curious, I've never heard of that before. How is it a negative?

That is exact reason they put thermostats in. If an engine isn't kept up to proper operating temperature, it will run poorly, tend to foul spark plugs, use extra fuel, and have excessive wear.


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