Super A-V bad clutch noise

Farmall Super A, AV, 100, 130, & 140 1939 - 1973

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ccaissie
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Super A-V bad clutch noise

Postby ccaissie » Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:04 am

Client said clutch was slipping. Wrong. Was stuck, and couldn't get it into gears.

I followed some advice to park on a steep incline, nose down, spray WD40 ( I used brake cleaner...hate the idea of spraying lube anywhere near a clutch) onto the splined shaft before the TO bearing, and let it run forward into the clutch splines and pilot bushing.
That worked...after working the clutch I can now get it into gear easily.

NOW, there's a rapping noise coming from forward of the transmission, all gears.
Pretty steady, related to engine speed.
Not final drive, not transmission, not PTO. Checked all those, cover of tranny off, gears good, no metal in lube, etc. Everything works in there as it should.
If I let the clutch out gently in neutral, I can sometimes eliminate the noise, but still hear it a bit. Sounds like something interfering with a rotating clutch part.
Clutch free play adjustment makes no difference.
Sounds like it's coming from midway in the torque tube, way behind the flywheel housing, way before the tranny.

I read on a Cub forum that repeated free play adjustments will eventually cause the clutch plate lever screws to hit something or other...
I can't tell if there's such a problem on an A, but it sure sounds like that would cause this type of noise.

Any ideas?
1948 Farmall Super AV
1961 Cub
1964 International B275
1947 International KB-5 Dump Truck
1968 F-250 plow truck
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Matt Kirsch
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Re: Super A-V bad clutch noise

Postby Matt Kirsch » Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:15 pm

It's an open cavity in there so the location of the source of the noise could be thrown off. There isn't much in there behind the throwout bearing aside from a shaft.

If it's something you can hear with the tractor not moving, you can shine a light up into the inspection hole on the bottom of the bell housing and try to gain some insight that way. Something hitting the clutch should be easily visible through the inspection hole.

Is the noise all the time, just in neutral, or only when the clutch pedal is depressed?

ccaissie
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Re: Super A-V bad clutch noise

Postby ccaissie » Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:58 pm

I concur. What's up front that could be rapping? Noises telegraph like mad in gear trains.

The noise is when the clutch is engaged, in any gear, and in neutral. A while ago, i could slowly engage the clutch in neutral without noise, but now after running it more, it's worse.

I'm beginning to think it's further back. In Catalog TC-39, page 163/164, there's Item 15 is the "clutch drive shaft joint". If one of the bolts works loose, it may hit something.

I did detect a vibration on that whole clutch/chassis casting, especially near the tranny.
While it was idling and in neutral (and knocking) I reached with a fingertip inside the chassis casting, up over the clutch release rod to feel the clutch shaft, it was very eccentric, running out maybe 1/8" or more. I'd guess it would normally run true.

So, tomorrow I'll get some strong light and some inspection mirrors, and a magnet and other diagnostic stuff, and poke around up in the tube to see if there's a bolt loose, something busted, or metal shavings, or gouged areas inside the casting.
1948 Farmall Super AV
1961 Cub
1964 International B275
1947 International KB-5 Dump Truck
1968 F-250 plow truck
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Jim Becker
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Re: Super A-V bad clutch noise

Postby Jim Becker » Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:53 pm

ccaissie wrote:In Catalog TC-39, page 163/164, there's Item 15 is the "clutch drive shaft joint". If one of the bolts works loose, it may hit something.

If a bolt in that joint comes loose, parts of the joint could be running into each other to make the noise, particularly if some of the rubber washers got away or disintegrated.

ccaissie
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Re: Super A-V bad clutch noise

Postby ccaissie » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:33 am

If so, any input on how that gets repaired? Is it possible/problematic to break the tranny off there? Will look at clever ways to repair through hole.

Thanks,
Colin
1948 Farmall Super AV
1961 Cub
1964 International B275
1947 International KB-5 Dump Truck
1968 F-250 plow truck
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Jim Becker
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Re: Super A-V bad clutch noise

Postby Jim Becker » Thu Jul 16, 2015 8:43 am

Access to the joint requires a split between the transmission and bell housing. As I recall, if you only split it far enough to access the joint, the front of the clutch shaft will still be inside the sleeve that carries the throwout bearing.

Dale Finch posted a thread on the procedure for changing the input shaft seal some time back. That requires the same split and accessing the joint. Take a look at what she did.
http://farmallcub.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=170&t=65406

ccaissie
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Re: Super A-V bad clutch noise

Postby ccaissie » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:16 am

Thank You Jim:

OK, so there was one bolt missing on the clutch drive joint. Lock washer failed to lock after 67 years, and nut came off. Impossible to repair in place, so I broke it at the tranny. Replaced the transmission input seal, and gasket while I was in there. Replaced the rubber washers, and used Grade 8 top lock nuts on the joint to make sure the parts don't ever loosen at least in my lifetime.

Went together well. No banging. Now I'm back to a previous problem, clutch sticking and having trouble engaging/ disengaging.

I had sprayed brake solvent onto the clutch drive shaft and disk splines, and that took care of the problem before I repaired the joint. Shifted fine, almost no spin-down time shifting...all good.

Now, after fixing the clutch joint, it's back and I can't make a difference by freeplay adjustment, more solvent, some WD-40, rapping and banging with a rod on the splines and clutch hub....nada.

So, again, here are the symptoms. It won't go into gear except with a quick hard throw which grinds and just is not right. In neutral, clutch pedal depressed, I can hear the gears in the tranny spinning erratically, some grunting noises as the clutch semi engages...kinda off and on. Actually, once in a while it WILL GO INTO GEAR, smiles appear, then it won't.

When I shut engine off, I put it in gear, and restart it, clutch pedal depressed, it's perfect... FOR ABOUT 2 SECONDS, then it resumes it's noisy intermittent grunting and the tractor creeps. Releasing the clutch...... the grinding noise worsens for a moment as the clutch grabs more, then it's perfect, no noises, driving ahead like normal. Can catch it into reverse if rolling back, etc. BUT, throw the clutch pedal down, and it's still trying to creep forward, and now making the noises.

So, clutch disk is dragging on the flywheel, or the pressure plate, or the pilo bushing is seized, and I can't seem to free it. I'm hoping it's just a binding of the disk hub on the splines, but expect that to improve, now that there's some solvent on it, and it worked before. It may loosen in time. For now, farmer Brown is going to use it, doing his longest rows, restarting the engine with the tranny already in gear and all that.

Is the disk coming apart? delaminating/ rivets falling out and getting caught? Seizing on the disk splines? Pilot bushing?

So, break it apart, eh?....I did notice that the clutch fingers were not all showing the same action with the clutch being depressed. It looked like one of the fingers had slight clearance ((1/32") and a bit of slack a the TOB, while the other two fingers were already contacting the TOB. I adjusted it a couple of turns in both directions, and saw no change in the action there or in the grinding symptoms. I'll review the bench clutch adjustment procedure, but I'm pretty convinced that it's clutch time.

Any words of encouragement? Is this interesting? OR NOT.
1948 Farmall Super AV
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1964 International B275
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1968 F-250 plow truck
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havoc1482
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Re: Super A-V bad clutch noise

Postby havoc1482 » Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:44 pm

Split it at the Bell Housing|Engine. Sounds to me like you've got a failing pressure plate. We had a C that acted similar. I bet you'll find something wrong in there. If a new clutch is needed, they're really easy to do.
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Matt Kirsch
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Re: Super A-V bad clutch noise

Postby Matt Kirsch » Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:57 am

A failing pressure plate may not be obvious in a visual inspection, so it may be wise and prudent to replace the clutch disk, pressure plate, and throwout bearing while you have it apart regardless of what you find in there.

In the case of my latest Cub, I found the clutch plate rusted to the flywheel from sitting in wee-soaked mouse nest. It may have broken loose but I doubt it would've ever satisfactorily polished without taking it apart and going over it with my die grinder and a scotchbrite disk.

You may have something like that going on, where there's a chunk of rust hanging on somewhere causing your intermittent problem, and the only way to get rid of it is to take it apart and polish it off.

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havoc1482
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Re: Super A-V bad clutch noise

Postby havoc1482 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:21 pm

Matt Kirsch wrote:A failing pressure plate may not be obvious in a visual inspection, so it may be wise and prudent to replace the clutch disk, pressure plate, and throwout bearing while you have it apart regardless of what you find in there.

In the case of my latest Cub, I found the clutch plate rusted to the flywheel from sitting in wee-soaked mouse nest. It may have broken loose but I doubt it would've ever satisfactorily polished without taking it apart and going over it with my die grinder and a scotchbrite disk.

You may have something like that going on, where there's a chunk of rust hanging on somewhere causing your intermittent problem, and the only way to get rid of it is to take it apart and polish it off.



Ironically we just had a C and a B have the clutch disk stuck to the flywheel because we washed mouse nests out of the bellhousing and the moisture seized them up. Had to drive both of em full throttle and slam on the brakes with the clutch in to break it loose. PITA!
Mike
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Matt Kirsch
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Re: Super A-V bad clutch noise

Postby Matt Kirsch » Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:54 pm

The part of that story I left out was that I ended up splitting the tractor TWICE.

When I got it I could tell the clutch fingers were way too low. Previous owner said they had recently replaced the clutch. So I pulled it apart, set the fingers to the requisite 1-1/4", and slid it back together.

Dummy me should have pulled the pressure plate and clutch right there to check and clean, but nooooo, it was going to be fine... NOT.

Luckily I didn't get much past putting the 6 bolts back in the bell housing and taking the splitting stands off before I decided to run a test. Popped it in gear and held down the clutch. Wouldn't roll. %$#@! Back out come the splitting stands...

At least it wasn't a big tractor.

ccaissie
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Re: Super A-V bad clutch noise

Postby ccaissie » Sat Jul 25, 2015 12:54 pm

Replaced the clutch shaft joint parts, washers and LOCKNUTS...it's not coming apart again in my lifetime.
So that got rid of the banging noise.

Clutch adjustment got really squirrelly, would work, then freeplay gone, then too much freeplay....

Farmer Brown did the most cultivating he could do with the tractor in first and really, no clutch ability. Just started it in gear and tossed it into neutral before hitting anything.

So, now it's apart, and the disk had really been disintegrating for some time, bushing destroyed, etc.

Pressure plate looks good...the odd finger action was from chunks of the disk creating uneven thickness...but got all new stuff.

So R&R it all. Needed a rear main seal, so that's going on right now.
Thanks all for the info, entertainment and support.

Now, I will finally do the clutch in my 61 cub.
1948 Farmall Super AV
1961 Cub
1964 International B275
1947 International KB-5 Dump Truck
1968 F-250 plow truck
Other Stuff


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