51 Super A touch Control won't lift!

Farmall Super A, AV, 100, 130, & 140 1939 - 1973

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AGrinthal
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51 Super A touch Control won't lift!

Postby AGrinthal » Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:44 pm

SuperAWithSnowPlow.jpg
Super A with a Snow Dozer Jr Snow Plow
Hello All.
Looking for some advice here. Purchased a '51 Farmall Super A which had what appears to be a wagner bucket loader on it. The loader was plumbed directly to the Hydraulic pump (touch control had an easy connect to the pressure side and a pipe on the return.. however nothing connecting to either).

I removed the bucket and set the plumbing back up to stock. WHile doing so I drained the box and removed the Screen (which wound up not being there!). There was lots of gunk in the reservoir (even a pumpkin seed!) I cleaned it all out and Sprayed it though the screen opening with Kerosene and dried it all out. I then replaced the Screen (Well at this point it was just the end piece with the temp control on it as the screen I guess was long gone). I refilled the reservoir and started her up. Much to my delight.. the arms moved (after a while). I moved them back and forth a few times and shut her down.

I wanted the stock set up for a snow plow. I proceeded to install the plow. However The rocker arm will only Move a little and stops. (plow still on ground). The Pump gets Real hot. My guess is there is something wrong with the Touch Control box since this pumped operated the Bucket loader without any problem. I don't have a clogged screen (since mine was missing... I did get a used one but haven't put it in yet).

I guess my question is should I just go ahead and tear down the Lift Control box? Should the Hydraulic pump get that hot? Just looking for some advice on what to do since I was planning to use this tractor to my driveway this winter. Rebuild kits are available and there some good video's.. I'm just curious if I'm missing anything. I didn't do a pressure reading simply because the pump ran my bucket loader with out any problem... lifting, dumping etc...

So what should my game plan be? rebuild kits are about $100 and change and I have a line on a used unit for $200 plus shipping. I assume it WILL snow some time (been pretty mild on the east coast this year) and I don't want to have to hook up the snow plow I had for my cub (would like to sell it actually) as the Super A has a killer plow on it now but it won't lift it.

Thanks
Andy
Andover, NJ

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Re: 51 Super A touch Control won't lift!

Postby Jim Becker » Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:02 am

First off, are you absolutely sure that the hydraulics are all back to the original configuration? no bypass block, hoses, etc. still on it? Next, after it quit moving did you refill it and try cycling the system with the filler cap open? If neither of these fix it, the screen at the orifice or the orifice itself is probably plugged (especially considering the main screen is gone). Pull the battery out and look for a pipe plug in the Touch Control head. take it out then unscrew the screen/orifice. Clean and reinstall.

AGrinthal
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Re: 51 Super A touch Control won't lift!

Postby AGrinthal » Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:47 am

yes Sir back to stock. No screen in the unit (yet .. I got a used one but didn't put it in yet). The arms do move without a load. The reservoir was pretty gunked up (ok a lot gunked up, I even found a pumpkin seed in it!). I had the screen plate out and the drain plug out to drain the thing and then took Kerosene in a spray bottle to clean the inside. I then used a screwdriver to push a rag around until I was satisfied I got all the crap out (as best I could see) then refilled. It moved after a while and I was thrilled!

It still does move but not under load. Now here's the odd thing. It was lifting the plow but it was also tilting the rear draw bar since it wasn't screwed in tight enough. I actually had shortened the steel cable thinking it was too slack but hadn't notice that rear drawbar had shifted. (I purchased the tractor in Sept and the plow shortly after so they are both new to me). Anyway I corrected the mounting problem and then poof No lift. There was smoke coming off the pump but I figured that was from Hydro oil that had spilled on it when I put the stock hydro pipes back on. I don't recall if it got that hot when bucket was on the tractor. the unit DOES hum somewhat and I was thinking that was air that hasn't purged yet.

I have no idea how long the lift box may have been run WITHOUT that screen since it did have a Quick connect on the pressure side. I hope it wasn't that much because it was pretty crappy inside. The guy I purchased from was just using to clear trees after Hurricane Sandy and He never used the bucket or had any clue about the Lift all box so I assume it's been a long time since any fluid went through that box (...little side note.. they guy he bought it off said it was owned by Desi Arnez...interesting but irrelevant to this thread !)

I'm going to try what you suggested. I've seen some good rebuild video's on Youtube but I need this thing for snow plowing NOW. Will there be TWO pipe plugs? one for each ram? I appreciate the tip. I'm just afraid there was ALOT of crap in that reservoir. IF this screen is plugged would that explain the Hot Pump? the other side moves freely (nut again no load).

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John *.?-!.* cub owner
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Re: 51 Super A touch Control won't lift!

Postby John *.?-!.* cub owner » Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:34 am

I have only limited experience with a Super A, but I believe the drawbar is supposed to pivot using the molboard plow, if that is what you are referring to in that part, as opposed to a snow plow. If you were referring to a now plow when the drawbar was lifting, a picture would help, since i don't remember the Super A snow plow mounting to the drawbar. Me not remembering something is not unusual though.

As to it not lifting a load and the pump getting hot, my guess would be that it spent time with the lines not plugged and mice packed stuff into the hoses and the garbage is now in the TC block, and it and the pump both need to be torn down and cleaned. It has several orifices with pretty small holes that plug easily.
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AGrinthal
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Tractors Owned: 1943 Farmall M
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Location: Andover, New Jersey

Re: 51 Super A touch Control won't lift!

Postby AGrinthal » Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:00 am

John,
My snow plow isn't the "Grader Blade type" but a Snow Dozer who's rear attaches to the draw bar (See picture ...you can see the brace going to the back). My comment was that I didn't have the bolts in correctly (mounting bolts for drawbar) and when I first tried lifting the plow the drawbar in the back had pivoted because it wasn't secured correctly (it shouldn't pivot ..its just used to brace the plow). The blade is lifted by a pulley and instead the whole set up shifted the rear bar (Not properly secured).

No hoses to the box. Just a quick connect and exit elbow (that was caped) so no access for mice. But there was a lot of crap in it when I cleaned it out via the screen access. Should the pump get hot? I never really noticed when I had the scoop on (or on my cub). I have no problem doing a rebuild. I just don't want to do it now. I need the snow plow working!

Not to get off topic but I will drop you a note some time later about your wagner loader. I have one for my Super A and I need to repack the rams. Need to figure out part numbers and source.

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Re: 51 Super A touch Control won't lift!

Postby Don McCombs » Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:11 am

Given that you had debris in the Touch Control unit and no screen installed, I think you can be pretty well assured that there is debris scattered throughout the unit. Maybe even in the pump. To be on the safe side, I would at least drain the system, install your new screen, refill and give it a try. Make sure you cycle the hydraulics at least a dozen times to get all the air out. Then check the fluid level and top off, if necessary.
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John *.?-!.* cub owner
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Re: 51 Super A touch Control won't lift!

Postby John *.?-!.* cub owner » Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:19 pm

I couldn't see the picture before, but for some reason I can now. That is a unique setup to put it mildly. The cable and pulley arrangement reverse the operation direction of the lift, so that instead of pushing forward to raise, as the original touch controls worked, you pull back on the lever to raise, which is the way the old Farmall Liftalls worked. This means that you are lifting via the flow restricter circuit in the touch control that prevents heavy implements from falling rapidly. Since it was full of debris, it had to get there someway at some time, either stuffed in by mice before the lines were capped, in the loader cylinders at some time when they were hooked up, then from the pump to the TC block when you changed the connection, or the top cover could have been left off the touch control block at sometime and them dumped in there. No matter how they got there, the touch control unit is going to have to be cleaned before it will work.

As to how hot the pump gets, it should be only slightly hotter than the engine block where it mounts, but not much. Hot enough to cause smoke to come off it is way too hot.
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Re: 51 Super A touch Control won't lift!

Postby Jim Becker » Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:33 pm

John *.?-!.* cub owner wrote:. . . garbage is now in the TC block, and it and the pump both need to be torn down and cleaned. It has several orifices with pretty small holes that plug easily.

At this point, I agree with John. Also, with the pump getting smoking hot, you need to take care of it before running it more. If the pump isn't damaged yet, it will be soon.

AGrinthal
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Re: 51 Super A touch Control won't lift!

Postby AGrinthal » Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:41 pm

That's my concern too. And why I don't want to run it
I'm going to have to assume its my box that's bad. I will try the tip you told me last night. I have a line on a replacement box from a super C.
Why are the pumps so extremely expensive? Prices for used ones range all over the place on ebay too!

AGrinthal
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Tractors Owned: 1943 Farmall M
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1951 Farmall Super A
1966 Farmall 140
Location: Andover, New Jersey

Re: 51 Super A touch Control won't lift!

Postby AGrinthal » Thu Jan 14, 2016 3:04 pm

The cable and pulley arrangement reverse the operation direction of the lift, so that instead of pushing forward to raise, as the original touch controls worked, you pull back on the lever to raise, which is the way the old Farmall Liftalls worked. This means that you are lifting via the flow restricter circuit in the touch control that prevents heavy implements from falling rapidly


John,
It lifts pushing the control FORWARD. that pulls the cable at the arm forward and in turn pulls the front hook UP to lift. There's a pivot point up by the radiator. SO when the arm moves forward all the cable's weighted points are being drawn back. Took me a little bit see how it all went together since I purchased it over the summer and it wasn't on the tractor.

I bought it off a guy in CT that was the original owner. He used it on his father's Super A for years. But at 70+ he's decided to have someone do the snow plowing for him! The thing is big! Which is the reason I wanted a super A since the cub was a little light for last years massive snow amounts! (but it did take of business I will say!)

Andy

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Re: 51 Super A touch Control won't lift!

Postby TurboRoadster » Thu Jan 14, 2016 3:52 pm

I dont have an answer, wish I had the bucket you took off though :-)

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John *.?-!.* cub owner
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Re: 51 Super A touch Control won't lift!

Postby John *.?-!.* cub owner » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:39 pm

I didn't look it all over closely enough. As to the reason they are so high, so far as I know they have not been made for several years, so the used ones are all there are.
If you are not part of the solution,
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AGrinthal
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Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:23 am
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Tractors Owned: 1943 Farmall M
1952 Farmall Cub
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1966 Farmall 140
Location: Andover, New Jersey

Re: 51 Super A touch Control won't lift!

Postby AGrinthal » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:55 pm

John..
Are the rebuild kits for pumps any good? I may just pick up another pump (just in case) in ebay.


All the head had on it were the mounting bolts. I didn't find any pipe plugs or screens. There are lots on the sides though!. I managed to find a box from a Super C and I'm picking it up Saturday.
I got my box off the tractor. I was happy to see that I just had to remove the starter, the hydro plumbing and a few linkages and the thing slid out the left side (after propping the gas tank up). Heavy little sucker.

I'll mount the new "Box" and take it from there. More than likely I will then rebuild the old box. I agree with you guys there's probably some trash still circulating.
Hopefully this will get my snow plow back in ready mode without much down time.
Thanks for all the comments and help

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Re: 51 Super A touch Control won't lift!

Postby Jim Becker » Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:13 pm

Head is number 14, there are 2 bolt holes at the bottom edge. The pipe plug is in the hole right next to the right bolt hole. 30 is the orifice screen.

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AGrinthal
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Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:23 am
Zip Code: 07848
eBay ID: thatfarmallguy
Tractors Owned: 1943 Farmall M
1952 Farmall Cub
1951 Farmall Super A
1966 Farmall 140
Location: Andover, New Jersey

Re: 51 Super A touch Control won't lift!

Postby AGrinthal » Fri Jan 29, 2016 10:09 am

Thanks Jim,
I'm going to take another look now that you pointed it out (I was probably looking with my "Man eyes"). The whole unit is out . I swapped it with one I picked up from a super C. Which fit but was different in that it had a Bolted plate on the top not the full cast top like the picture you attached.

The unit works and I was able to plow all my snow this past storm. The super 'A" is head 'n shoulders above my Cub for that task I'll have to say. (First time I used it for snow plowing).

I'm going to check your suggestion anyway. I will eventually get a rebuild kit and re-do the box. I just needed a working unit for the snow and lucked out obtaining a new box locally (well sort of locally)

Thanks
Andy


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