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130 Starter will spin but not engage.

Farmall Super A, AV, 100, 130, & 140 1939 - 1973
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EZ
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130 Starter will spin but not engage.

Postby EZ » Mon Apr 25, 2016 5:59 pm

Went out the other day to start up the 130.
For no apparent reason, the starter just spun and did not engage the flywheel.
After a few tries I removed the starter and tested on the bench with a battery pack, seems fine.
Now the starter was newly rebuilt a few years back, but not used until this February when I first started the tractor.
The only trouble I can see is if the bendix is supposed to be 'held' toward the rear of the starter until the starter lever is pulled, then centrifugal force would 'throw' the bendix out forward to engage on the flywheel. (No broken teeth on flywheel). But looks to me like the bendix was/is already at the forward position when removed. Perhaps there is a 'catch' or some kind of 'dog' that is broken allowing the bendix to just spin?

The parts are clean and move freely.

Stumped.
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Matt Kirsch
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Re: 130 Starter will spin but not engage.

Postby Matt Kirsch » Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:44 pm

If it's the original type, there should be a light spring that pushes the gear back. You should be able to flip the gear back easily with your finger.

Clutch types lock in the out position and won't retract until a certain RPM is reached.

Should be easy to tell by spinning the small gear with your finger and looking to see if the armature turns along with the drive.

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Re: 130 Starter will spin but not engage.

Postby EZ » Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:25 pm

Image

Matt, when the bendix is all the way forward, it spins freely. You can feel once in while where it tries to grab something. I am thinking one or two more washers would hold it back on the shaft so it catches.

Image

Here's some wear on the ring gear. seems excessive to me.

Image

This is the inside of the starter hole. Lots of undamaged teeth.
Kind of wondering if the starter gear is the wrong size.
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Re: 130 Starter will spin but not engage.

Postby staninlowerAL » Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:35 pm

You might have excess wear on some of the ring gear teeth. When the starter spins but does not engage, try rotating the crank about 90 degrees and then try the starter again. If it engages and spins the motor then you have a worn spot on the ring gear. Most of the time the engine will come to rest in the same position when it's shut down, that's why the ring gear wears unevenly. If your ring gear has a bad spot you can split the tractor and rotate or flip the ring gear in lieu of replacement. If you flip it you will need to grind a slight angle on the teeth to help the bendix gear to slip in when starting. Good Luck, Stan.
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Re: 130 Starter will spin but not engage.

Postby EZ » Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:35 am

Image

My theory is that the pinion gear is going too far ahead on the shaft and therefore just 'spins out'.
Anyone else ever see this? How can I remedy the problem?

Was looking at another forum and found a quote from Bob M. about using smaller gauge wire to reduce the voltage to the starter. (A 6v starter being driven by a 12v battery).
Here's the quote:

"As for reducing the shock on the bendix caused by a 6 to 12 volt conversion, rather than swapping in an undersized (smaller CCA) battery I prefer to keep full-size battery and use undersized ungrounded battery cable instead. This limits the inrush current and softens bendix engagement forces yet still provides a good, fast spin. Also retaining he bigger CCA battery helps cold weather starting – an issue for us poor souls in rural western NY where winter seems to last about 7 or 8 months(!) It also provides longer reserve capacity for powering lights with the engine stopped, to get the tractor back to the shed with after busted alternator belt, etc.

For a Super M I’ve found a #2 battery cable is right – it noticeably lessens the “bang” when the bendix engages, but does not significantly slow the starter nor cause the cable to heat up much. A smaller, easier cranking tractor (H, A/B/C, etc) could probably get by with a #4 battery cable.

Make sense? ...Bob"
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Re: 130 Starter will spin but not engage.

Postby EZ » Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:38 am

At present, I have a nice big 00 wire going to the starter. Perhaps I should reduce to #2, or #4 ?
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Re: 130 Starter will spin but not engage.

Postby Jim Becker » Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:30 pm

If the pinion gear spins out so far that it disengages from the shaft, I doubt that having it spin out slower will make any difference.

When the pinion turns on the shaft, how much other stuff turns with it?

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Re: 130 Starter will spin but not engage.

Postby Super A » Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:59 pm

EZ wrote:At present, I have a nice big 00 wire going to the starter. Perhaps I should reduce to #2, or #4 ?


That's the last thing I would do!

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Re: 130 Starter will spin but not engage.

Postby Matt Kirsch » Mon May 02, 2016 9:42 am

That starter drive is broken. It isn't rocket surgery to replace it. If you're careful you can even do it without pulling the armature out of the brushes. Getting the armature back into the brushes is the fidgety part, but zip ties are your friend.

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Re: 130 Starter will spin but not engage.

Postby EZ » Tue May 03, 2016 10:08 pm

Image


Removed the armature and starter drive.
Looks good, see no problem. Nothing broken, key is good, spring and bolts are OK.

Found a site that sells this: Replaces: 1868804 (IH Part# for Starter Drive Assembly)
Improved ratchet style. CCW rotation. 10 teeth counter clockwise to engage ring gear.

This is a NEW & IMPROVED ratchet style which is a direct replacement to fit my starter which is a WILSON Remanufactured 1107093.

Anybody out there try this mod?
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Re: 130 Starter will spin but not engage.

Postby EZ » Wed May 04, 2016 7:21 pm

Ok. So I put the starter back together. Looked up the clutch hand hole while buddy pulled the lever. I could clearly see the pinion gear shoot forward all the way. I could see the armature spline shaft spinning but the pinion gear was not moving at all. Soooooo if anything I have learned to observe a 'not working' starter drive through the handhole for a clue as to what might be wrong. In this case, a defective drive assembly. #*@~¥!
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EZ
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Re: 130 Starter will spin but not engage.

Postby EZ » Thu May 05, 2016 8:33 am

Does anyone out there have a disassembled drive assembly.
Would like to see what is on the inside surface of the pinion gear and spline shaft.
Only curious to see what is so wimpy in there that it only lasted 15 starts before spinning out.
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EZ
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Re: 130 Starter will spin but not engage.

Postby EZ » Mon May 09, 2016 3:36 pm

OK.
So I know what the problem is now.

I went to pick up my new drive today. When I opened the box, the first thing I noticed was that the part was a 'used' part and it was already broken too.
The parts guy could only explain that it was probably brought in as a core and someone put it back on the shelf to sell.
Anyway, the part that was defective on that drive was the pinion gear stopper (that is the thick ring that the return spring travels up into). Well that stopper is threaded onto the top of the drive assembly, which is hollow to fit over the armature shaft. The threads are completely demolished. I believe that the stopper is being forced off the drive assembly by the thrust of the starter impact.
I took another look at my own drive and confirm the same thing. So.......in summary, the pinion drive gear IS indeed going too far forward on the shaft as a result of the stopper being out of position because of the pounding it is taking.

6V starter 12V battery, or poorly manufactured starter drive?

Ordered another drive assembly, should arrive before the end of the week.
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Re: 130 Starter will spin but not engage.

Postby John *.?-!.* cub owner » Mon May 09, 2016 8:19 pm

Hopefully they will send you the right one, there is a left hand and a right hand version.
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Re: 130 Starter will spin but not engage.

Postby EZ » Mon May 09, 2016 9:19 pm

Thanks John,
I will be bringing the defective drive for 'core rebate' and will compare with the new one.
Is there any chance that my remanufactured starter had the wrong drive?
Likely would not start if that was the case I am thinking.
I notice a Cub has the starter on the opposite side of the clutch housing when compared to my 130 which would account for the opposite rotation.
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