Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:02 am
There are several difference's in the QL frames (1200) and the 82 series frames (682), enough that they are not interchangable. The front section of the frame rails are not as tall on the 82 series, and the QL's use a pair of engine mounting rails and rubber ISO mounts to mount the engine to the frame, and the 682 and other 82 series except the 482, use an engine mounting plate and steel spacers to mount the engine. The 482 used a 11 hp B&S single cylinder engine and a pair of mount rails, cross bars, and ISO mounts similar to the QL's.
The 582, and 582 Special, had a B&S, flat, twin cylinder engine in it. CCC did build a model 1282 from 1982 to 1985, that used a single cylinder Kohler like the 1200 QL. I don't know if it was the same spec number engine or not, but was the same basic K301 AQS engine that was used in the 1200/1250 QL's.
Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:40 am
To answer my own question, I found the link to the Small Engine Warehouse. They list the Kohler Model K301S-47622, for $1300.00. That to me seems better then rebuilding mine, you never know what you are going to find in a rebuild.Thanks Brian
Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:59 am
If your Kohler is running, and you want to stick with a Kohler, I would opt to rebuild yours. The "pulling" guys have a-lot of tricks to get some extra hp out of your stock Kohler, and if you found a guy to do a rebuild, that is where I would head.
The 1000 series was available with 14 and 16hp engines, but, if I remember right, the 1450 and 1650 had slight frame modifications to allow for the bigger engines. I believe the 1650 had a section cut out of the frame to allow space for the larger flywheel, but don't quote me.
Honestly, I think I would stick with the same 12-hp and a rebuild. You could re-build it a couple of times for the price of a new one. Now, if the connecting rod or crank broke, or the engine is siezed, throw it away. I have never seen a rebuilt Kohler, where one of these things has happened, that lasted more than 100 hours. I have seen a few even that lasted for only 1 lawn mowing, and then blew up again. IF you go for a rebuild, go to someone who REALLY knows Kohlers.
As for motor mounts. I have mixed feelings about the solid mounts, but many guys swear by them, and those guys may have a-lot more experience with them than I do. My uncle had a 1000 that I must have put 3 clutches in, then finally upgraded the ISO mounts to the new replacement ISO mounts, and that clutsh is still running after 6 years. He mows about 3 acres with it.
That mower on e-bay is not all there, missing the casters and guage wheels, I would guess that it should not go for more than $150 or $200. Mine was complete, in very good condition, with no rust, and I got $500 for it. If you grab that one on e-bay, be prepared to spend some $$ to get the missing parts. They are big, heavy duty casters and such, and probably will run you another $100, if I had to guess.
Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:47 pm
Thanks for the help. Man, I hate mixing stuff up. I knew it too, because I had a 582 with the 16hp briggs. Just too many numbers to keep straight.
Now, i never pulled the engines, but aren't the ISO mounts from the 82 series very similar to the ISO replacement mounts for the 1000 series? This is why I thought you could interchange the engines. I knew that the frames were lower in the 82 series, to make room for the V-Kohler engines, but I thought the engine mounts were still the same.
Now I'm more curious to know the answer. I need to learn something every day
Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:25 pm
The narrow frame 147 had modified frame rails to allow the larger flywheel and the housing to fit in the narrow frame. The frame was changed to the wide frame with the 86-169 models, where the front part of the frame is wider starting about the front of the dash pedestal to the front - about 13-1/2" wide compared to about 11" wide for the narrow frame. The purpose was to allow the for the larger fyywheel of the 14-16 hp engines. The wide frames continued through the end of the IH production and into the Cub Cadet Corp models. The rear frame rail width is the same for both narrow and wide frames.
To my knowledge, the rubber ISO mounts were not used on the 582, 582S, 682, 782, 982, or the CCC yellow/white versions of the same models, and the ISO mounts are not shown in the part manuals for these models, that I can find.
You are correct about the driveline damage caused by worn out ISO mounts on the QL's. The flex center of the clutch drive disc would crack /break, cause the ends of the driveshaft to wear on both gear drive and hydro models etc, and it gets very pricey replacing these parts (clutch drive disc is in the $85 range the last one I bought). Although I like the early narrow frame tractors, in my opinion, the 149 is about the best all around model IH built - came with hydraulic lift, lights, etc. as standard equipment. The 129 is about the same , but with a 12 hp engine and less standard features, the 169 is about the same but with a lot more shake and vibration from the 16 hp engine, and most were built with a manual lift because of a parts shortage. Although a hydraulic lift retro kit for the 169 became available about 3 months after production of the tractor ended, I would say the majority of them were never converted.
Thu Mar 02, 2006 7:52 pm
I wouldn't waste my time or money to put a honda or briggs in a IH Cub Cadet 1200. If the motor is not running, remove the motor from tractor and do one of 2 things. Remove the head and pan to check out what condition motor is in or have a shop that works on small motors check it out.
My Son and I both rebuild small motors. Last 4 Kohlers that my Son and I rebuilt are 14 horse motors. 2 of the 4 motors now have been resleeved back down to factory specs. One sleeved motor is in pulling/plow tractor.
If you deside on adding more horsepower to your 1200 you will need to beef up the clutch to put the power to the ground. If you plan to mow grass 12 horse motor will have plenty power to do the task.
A Gentleman on this site hot-rodded a 12 horse Kohler.
Check out IH Cub Cadet Pulling and Hot Rodding section.
My pulling motor is base on Mr. Kirk's Killer Kohler motor.
Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:47 pm
That's what I need to do, open it up and see if it's worth the rebuild.
Looks like the guage wheels are the only thing wrong with that mower. Are the spindles still available? I sure like this site, it's great talking tractors! I put in new rubber motor mounts in 3 or 4 years ago and they are still good. Maybe I don't need those solid ones.Thanks Brian
Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:02 pm
I just read my above post, it looks like a 5 year old wrote it!. Sorry, I just came in from snow blowing with my new 1872. Oh boy what a tractor! I have never blown snow before, I own several trucks and Jeeps for that purpose. In fact I use to feel sorry for those guys covered in snow, blowing. Not no more!! What a blast I had. Between the Hydro and the turning brakes and hydraulic lift, it was fun. The only problem I had was I didn't put the side curtans back on after an oil change. The wind shifted and I got snow up in the engine and it developed a miss. Other than that I had fun. Brian
Last edited by DoOver on Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:31 am
Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:16 pm
Thanks GItractorman!!! I won the bid for that 60" mower you turn me on to!! I'm so excited, I've never bought any thing on Ebay before. I've looked at stuff that other people put up links for but that's it. Now I have to plan a road trip to West Virginia. Any one need anything picked up or delivered that way? Not to big I'm going with my Bronco. Thanks again to everyone on this nice site who have responded to me. It's great talking tractors. Brian
Mon Mar 06, 2006 8:23 pm
As in Paul B's post the engine mounting on the '82's with twins was as simple as it gets- the engines bolted down with spacers directly on to a plate that is bolted between the lower section of the frame rails.
As the Kohler and BS twins along with I believe an Onan in the 982 were horizontally opposed and well balanced by their nature, there was no need for rubber engine mounts as was the case with the singles.
The Honda replacement engine for the 682/782 brings smoothness to a degree even higher than that of the old opposed twins. The $400.00 above the cost of a base GX610 in the conversion kit gives you a VERY heavy gauge metal lower bracket that the GX610 bolts on to, which in turn bolts on to the original mounting plate (although it doesn't use the same holes, there are 2 front unused holes on that plate that the new bracket utilizes.) This bracket brings the crankshaft height and postion to that of the old engine.
The kit also includes a bracket and spacers which allow the old PTO clutch to bolt right on to the Honda engine. Only you have to completely disassemble the old PTO clutch, and properly reset its clearances once you get it mounted. Instructions and a feeler gauge to do this are included. Mine worked right the first time so I guess me- a two-bit truck driver, had a bit of a clue with the somewhat vague instructions
You also get a new muffler and a fabricated steel cooling shroud. It is NOT the cheap looking muffler shown on SEW's site, but a muffler that is very simlilar to the original one and its pipe exits out the same spot in the grille.
I thought this kit was well worth the money as it was obviously engineered to work right for my application- it was not a one-off Paul n' Vinny (American Chopper) setup. In fact Small Engine Warehouse actually buys and fits the specific kits to the actual tractor frames before making and selling them. Tulsa Engine Warehouse sells some of their own conversions too, and there is also a guy on the net who builds custom conversions he says for any old tractor using Briggs Vanguards. At the very least these conversions give you an option aside from rebuilding you old engine (often touch-and-go as to the finished outcome) or replacing with the same engine. In the case of the 682 I think the Honda conversion yielded a better engine than the original KT17. I wish I could bring the 682 out to some shows, but my OTR trucking job makes gettting home on a schedule to do so impossible.
Glad to hear you found a good used deck DoOver- the spindle assemblies are still available for most of the Cub decks, but they cost $100+ each. Have fun!
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