127 Cub Cadet High-Crop Project

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Re: 127 Cub Cadet High-Crop Project

Postby Paul B » Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:55 pm

Bigbill
The gear reduction is after the transmission. A hydrostatic transmission is totally hydraulic and is comprised basically of a hydraulic "pump and motor" in one housing. That's it. This pump and motor is not the same as a a hydraulic pump pumping fluid thru hoses to turn a remote hydraulic motor such as would be used in industrial applications, or in Case garden tractors (Case used a hydraulic drive system, and not a hydrostatic system). Basically the input shaft to the pump turns a swash plate that move pistons as the speed control is moved, that pumps fluid to the motor and moves more pistons which inturn move the swash plate in the motor ( remember that for each action there is an equal and opposite reaction ), which turns the output shaft. The splined or toothed output shaft of the hydraulic motor then turns the reduction gear which is mounted on the front of the pinion gear that inturn drives the ring gear in the the rear end. The hydrostatic pump/motor/transmission assembly is bolted to the front of the rear end housing. Without totally redesigning and recasting the complete rear end housing, the gear reduction cannot be removed.
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Re: 127 Cub Cadet High-Crop Project

Postby junkman1946 » Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:12 pm

Jim Hate to see ya give up, cause of a little stumbling block like this. I regret to say Ive never taken a Hydro apart. But if Paul Bell says the reduction gears on a Hydro are different from the Standard- thats good enough for me. Im going to keep your project turning over in my head and see if I can come up with some ideas. Frank
1948 Cub F,1962 Original,1971 C.C.model86, WheelHorse and C.C. mini pulling tractors, C.C. models1450 , 682,106,123, Ariens GT17 with loader,Jacobsen Powermax loader and backhoe 8 more Cub Cadets in the shed waiting to go under the knife and spray gun.
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Re: 127 Cub Cadet High-Crop Project

Postby Paul B » Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:22 pm

Frank, Jim
The gear drive reduction gear has 84 teeth and the input shaft has 12, (7 to 1 reduction), and the hydro reduction gear has 66 teeth but I don't know how many teeth are on the input shaft (actually the out put shaft of the hydrostatic transmission), but is is fairly close to what the gear drive input shaft has.

Jim, I'm not sure what it is your are after, but I built a "High Clear" version of a Cub Cadet (used a model 100with gear drive), that has 16" rear rims with 700x16 tires that were 29.2" tall. The rims were from a pickup and were mounted to the stock 12 centers that same way the 30" Farmall Cub High Clears were - 4 triangle tabs welded to the rim and the stock Cub Cadet 12" centers bolted to the tabs. The front wheels were the 12" fronts off of a 154 Lo-Boy. It was a little bit faster than stock, and about as fast as I wanted with the Cub Cadet steering system, but still had pulling power.
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Re: 127 Cub Cadet High-Crop Project

Postby Tim Martin » Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:52 pm

If you want to fix the gear reduction problem, just add larger wheels and space them out wide for stability. This Cub Cadet High Crop project that someone started was on ebay last month.

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Re: 127 Cub Cadet High-Crop Project

Postby JimT » Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:24 am

Frank,
I'm not going to give up, just going to switch gears. Pardon the pun. :lol: After running it at about 1 mph almost wide open I don't think the hydrostat will be very practical. Going to shows it would take too long to get from the truck and trailer to where you park and sit for the shows. And I would like to have enough speed to drive in the tractor parades.

Paul,
I'm just doing a play toy and would like to stay with the final drives off a FCub. I think the gear reduction overdrive gears will solve the speed problem. If a regular cub cadet can go 31 mph with the 46% overdrive gears then I'm thinking with the FCub finals on the cub cadet tranny I should be able to get about 5-6 mph out of it. That would be fast enough for what we do and the parades.

Tim,
Even with the taller tires I don't think it would give enough speed for the parades. I didn't realize how much the finals slow down the cadet. There is almost another 6-1 gear ratio with the FCub finals. So if a cadet will go 6 mph then there is my 1 mph mine is going. With the tall tires like the one on ebay (by the way it is back on ebay now) doing a little math based on the circumference of a circle, if I am right (no math wizard here) then I think it would go about 2 mph. I'm just figuring you go twice as far with the taller tire in one revolution so it I think the speed would be twice as fast.

O'well. It's something to play with this time of year. I'm going to a garden tractor show today in Dickson, TN. May find a gear drive cadet there that I can switch gears on. :wink:
JimT

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Re: 127 Cub Cadet High-Crop Project

Postby Ron Luebke » Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:51 am

jim, i'm glad to see your not giving up on it. i think in the end it'll be a sweet looking tractor .
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Re: 127 Cub Cadet High-Crop Project

Postby phildidit » Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:19 am

can't wait to see it at stonethrow next year! :D
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Re: 127 Cub Cadet High-Crop Project

Postby BigBill » Sat Oct 25, 2008 2:34 pm

I think that cub cadet high crop looks really neat. We just started cleaning up my garage after my log splitter project is almost finished(waiting for the new 8hp to get there). I'm jones'n to get back to my tractors and start working on them. I think its time to play with the final drives to see how it can be done. In looking over the high crop on the orginal in the pic is it too narrow? I also have some int154 8.3x24 and 13.6x16 rims and tires which are offset more than the fcub rims. I'm really wary of this being too narrow, because i had a bad experience with my fcub set on the narrowest setting almost going over.
I like the wider safer setting but its the same as the int154 with the width. But the wheelbase needs a little added on to it too.

To remove the gear reduction from a standard tranny we need to change out the input shaft on the tranny to one like the int154 cub has right? We need to adapt the roll pin and sleeve coupling directly to the tranny when the gear reduction is removed. Then we need the int154 seal on the input shaft and the cover on the pinion shaft too. Please correct me if i'm wrong but i think thats how it looks if we were to remove the gear reduction.

Sorry i thought the reduction on the hydro was the same as the standard tranny's. I don't own any hydro's yet. While i worked on my neighbors 147 & 125 a few times i really didn't pay too much attention to details on the tranny. I have no clue as to why IH didn't make the tranny area more accessible from the top with removable covers. I wish my standard tranny's were the sameway too with removable covers to access the clutch area and tranny driveshaft. Its very hard to work on it from the bottom for me anyway.
I'm technically misunderstood at times i guess its been this way my whole life so why should it change now.
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Re: 127 Cub Cadet High-Crop Project

Postby junkman1946 » Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:41 pm

Spent a couple hours out in the shop today mounting new(to me) 9.5 rubber on the Cub. Came up with this for you guys to chew on for awhile: 2005 in Arendtsville Pa. I looked at a Hi-Crop WheelHorse, done up very handsomely. Fellow made his own final drive cases out of sheet steel. They looked similar in size to the Cub final housings. Instead of reduction gears inside he used 2 equal toothed sprokets and chain to give the illusion of reduction without the reduction. If you could seperate the gears from the Cub axles/shafts add a pair of Weld-a-sprockets, some 40wt. chain, you might be able to do the same. Frank :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:
1948 Cub F,1962 Original,1971 C.C.model86, WheelHorse and C.C. mini pulling tractors, C.C. models1450 , 682,106,123, Ariens GT17 with loader,Jacobsen Powermax loader and backhoe 8 more Cub Cadets in the shed waiting to go under the knife and spray gun.
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Re: 127 Cub Cadet High-Crop Project

Postby Paul B » Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:53 pm

Bigbill
Perhaps you need to look at the Cub Cadet transaxle casting a little closer, because it's not quite that simple. The gear reduction on a Cub Cadet is in a cast housing that bolts to the front of the transmission case. The top of the housing where the input shaft is (that shaft is also in line with the drive shaft of the tractor) is a couple of inches above the top of the transmission. The input shaft drives the 84 tooth reduction gear which is mounted on the front of the transmission top shaft. That makes the top shaft of the transmission several inches below the the driveshaft of the tractor, which means the driveshaft will not connect to the transmissions input shaft. If the Cub Cadet has internal brakes, they are also in the gear reduction housing. You will also probably find some extra holes in the front of the transmission case that are used as oil passages into ond out of the gear reduction housing because the brake disc and the reduction gear are lubricated by the oil/fluid in the transaxle case. So it's not as simple as you might think.
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Re: 127 Cub Cadet High-Crop Project

Postby BigBill » Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:44 am

I already purchased an extra int154 input shaft and the seal with the plate that holds it and the lower cover to cover the shaft so the tranny is sealed when the reduction housing is removed. If there are any more transfer oil holes or drain holes they can be tapped NPT for pipe plugs.

I understand that the shaft heights may need to be played with too so everything lines up. This is why i said in the past posts to stretch the cadet frame a tad longer(make a new frame) and stronger so its easier to relocate the engine so it lines up. My point is its harder to rework something sometimes than just making a whole new one(frame). It takes more time to rework.

I would like to build my FEL on a larger tractor than a cadet but smaller than my int154 cub. I found some backhoe steel in my scrap pile yesterday too. (box beam) So i'm thinking of putting an FEL & Backhoe on the same tractor.

I think there are some great minds here and with all of us thinking together and out of the box or on the edge of the envelope we can come up with some great ideas and make it work.

The int154 cub tranny input ia like the cub cadet in a way because they still use the roll pin couplings but the shaft size(diameter) is larger. I would think the 154 shaft can be welded up were the larger pins holes are and turned down and the pin holes redrilled so it would interact with the cadet parts. Or we have another option of going with the larger 154 shaft and making the cadet drive shaft larger but we need a larger clutch spring. I think it can be "upsized" too. We could use the 154 clutch setup too. There's a few different ways we can go to make it work. At the sametime i would like it to be the strongest it can be too because were going with the larger tires.

On my 70 cadet with the 29"1250-15" tru power tires i notice no difference in power loss at all with the replacement 8hp kolher. It makes me think even going with the 31"1550-15" tru power tires they would workout too. My point is if we add the final drives and 8.3x24 tires it maybe a wash too with no power loss because of the final ratio's too. I'm just looking ahead to realize we may or may not have a problem.

With the cadet tranny with just the 154 / fcub finals on it we have the same tranny as the 154 / fcub has right? With the cadet gear reduction box removed can the creeper tranny be added for a hi/low range? Its just a thought for more instant power with the movement of a shift lever.
I'm technically misunderstood at times i guess its been this way my whole life so why should it change now.
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Re: 127 Cub Cadet High-Crop Project

Postby Paul B » Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:09 am

Bill,
With the Cub Cadet gear reduction housing removed, there is no way to mount the Cub Cadet creeper, it mounts to the front of that housing. Plus, I would not recommend using the CC creeper for anything other than a slow tractor speed at a high engine RPM, like it was designed for. It is not designed for, nor should it be used for, increased pulling power or torque, and IH tells you that in the operators manuals. It is a rather expensive piece of equipment (and a desirable piece to collectors) to tear up through miss-use.

As far as a clutch goes, the Cub Cadet clutch is probably a better choice than the one used in a 154 (both versions). The 154 clutch was a known trouble area, and does not have too good a history of reliablity

There is nothing wrong with thinking outside the box, as long as things are thought thru before suggesting it to someone as it as a way to do something. In my opinion, if something is going to require at lot of machine work or reconstruction to use it in a non standard application, then one needs to consider the use of another kind or type, that is more suited for the intended use. As the old saying goes, with enough welding rod, anything can be put in anything.........but that doesn't mean that is the best way to do it.
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Re: 127 Cub Cadet High-Crop Project

Postby junkman1946 » Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:15 am

IMHO If you start tearing up a C.C. transaxle that much. You may as well make something with a Panzer differential and a regular small truck tranny. Seems like a lot less work. Panzer rear has the same wheel bolt pattern as A C.C. Frank
1948 Cub F,1962 Original,1971 C.C.model86, WheelHorse and C.C. mini pulling tractors, C.C. models1450 , 682,106,123, Ariens GT17 with loader,Jacobsen Powermax loader and backhoe 8 more Cub Cadets in the shed waiting to go under the knife and spray gun.
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Re: 127 Cub Cadet High-Crop Project

Postby Jim Becker » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:11 pm

junkman1946 wrote:I looked at a Hi-Crop WheelHorse, done up very handsomely. Fellow made his own final drive cases out of sheet steel. They looked similar in size to the Cub final housings. Instead of reduction gears inside he used 2 equal toothed sprokets and chain to give the illusion of reduction without the reduction. If you could seperate the gears from the Cub axles/shafts add a pair of Weld-a-sprockets, some 40wt. chain, you might be able to do the same.

Having followed most of this thread, I think something similar to this suggestion makes the most sense of what has been tossed around. You can leave the original Cadet drive train unchanged, except for the axles. Modify a pair of original axles to accept a roller chain sprocket. Make up a "housing" of angle/channel/sheet steel for each side that will carry another Cadet axle. Modify this axle as needed to accept another sprocket. You're done. It will end up some wider than standard, but that is probably good. This is essentially what is done for most of the super high clearance modifications for bigger tractors.
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Re: 127 Cub Cadet High-Crop Project

Postby junkman1946 » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:01 pm

Im thinking you can gut the gears out of the regular Cub reduction housings and use the cases with the chain hidden inside. You may be able to use the same oil bath to lube the chain. The chain should pick up and carry enough lube to lube the top shaft.
1948 Cub F,1962 Original,1971 C.C.model86, WheelHorse and C.C. mini pulling tractors, C.C. models1450 , 682,106,123, Ariens GT17 with loader,Jacobsen Powermax loader and backhoe 8 more Cub Cadets in the shed waiting to go under the knife and spray gun.
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