Kohler Viton-tipped needles

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Kohler Viton-tipped needles

Postby Matt Kirsch » Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:13 am

How do you keep Viton tipped needles from jamming?

I think that's why I'm having problems with my 1250's engine right now.

The carburetor kit was a genuine Kohler part, so I'm not dealing with a cheap Chinese needle and seat here.

New needle, new seat for sure. I double-checked.
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Re: Kohler Viton-tipped needles

Postby BigBill » Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:26 am

The new gas mixture with the corn alcohol (ethanol to be politically correct) I believe is affecting not only the older fuel rubber lines and the cork bowel gaskets that are used on the C60 cub engines i think it can be affecting the viton tip needles too. My 1200 is constantly running out of gas when i let it sit. The needle is sticking. I guess the only way to solve it is to use the old needle(solid brass). Years ago i would lap in the old needle and seat to make it seal and stop weeping. Some old timers gave the setup a little shot with a small hammer to form a new relationship between the old needle and seat too. It would hammer form a new seal.

The cork gasket on my int154 with the IH carb is swelling out at the seams now from the new gas were using.

My older husqvarna chainsaws from the 80's had problems with the fuel lines melting from the new gas too.

I don't have all the answers but its the new gas were using.

BTW; All my new carb kits mcdonald for the IH carb and zenith carbs came with the gasket paper bowel gaskets. I didn't get any cork gaskets at all. (C60 engines) So we need to beaware of the cork gaskets too.
I'm technically misunderstood at times i guess its been this way my whole life so why should it change now.
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Re: Kohler Viton-tipped needles

Postby Matt Kirsch » Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:37 am

New needle and seat were straight from the package into a dry carburetor. No gas contact at all, and they stick together like they're magnetized.
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Re: Kohler Viton-tipped needles

Postby BigBill » Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:52 am

Doesn't the bowel have that spring on it to pull the needle down when the fuel level drops? These carbs can be finiky to adjust the fuel float level were its right in the up position yet drop enough so the gas flows to fill the bowel.
I'm technically misunderstood at times i guess its been this way my whole life so why should it change now.
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Re: Kohler Viton-tipped needles

Postby Matt Kirsch » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:59 am

Unfortunately, no.

The only carb I've seen that on is the Zenith from my old Loboy. It would be nice to have the needle clipped to the float so that the weight of the float opens the needle.
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Re: Kohler Viton-tipped needles

Postby Paul B » Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:39 pm

I have not had that problem with either the Kohler kit or a Stens kit, but a foam float in a military standard engine I have in a Cub Cadet Original does not like the gasoline in my area. Try wiping the "rubber" tip off with a clean, dry cloth before you install it, to ensure there is no mold release or other compound from the manufacturing process on the tip that may be causing it to stick. For the most part, my Cub Cadets are for show and not use, and sit for days/months without being used, and I do not have any problems with the needle valve sticking, but I do used Sta-bil in the gas I use in them and that may, or may not, help prevent the needle valve from sticking. Two that were taken to RPRU still had gas from last year in the tank, and both started and ran with no problems.
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Re: Kohler Viton-tipped needles

Postby Merk » Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:26 pm

by big bill
The new gas mixture with the corn alcohol (ethanol to be politically correct) I believe is affecting not only the older fuel rubber lines and the cork bowel gaskets that are used on the C60 cub engines i think it can be affecting the viton tip needles too. My 1200 is constantly running out of gas when i let it sit. The needle is sticking. I guess the only way to solve it is to use the old needle(solid brass).


Running products like sea foam and other "fix it in the can garbage" is causing problems some are having. Kohler FAQs recomends against using prodcts like sea foam. Poor fuel storage/handling is another major problem. Poor maintance-keeping cooling fins clean is another reason why fuel lines melt.

Your 1200 should have a fuel shut off valve on it. I close the fuel shut off valve when I'm done using my small motors for that day.

The only carbs that need a spring in them is the ones that have a fuel pump in front of the carb.

I've been running fuel with ethanol in is since the early 80's. Back them it was called gasohol. The only problem I've had is higher fuel consumption.
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Re: Kohler Viton-tipped needles

Postby BigBill » Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:29 pm

Sorry i get confused with working on so many carbs.

My only needle sticking is in my 1200. My 70, my 100, my 122, my 104 and my 108 are running perfect even with seafoam. Seafoam lubes the upper part of the cylinder like the valves, valve guides and free's the stuck rings on the pistons. Plus it a fuel stabilizer too. I've had problems using stabil over the winter in my motorcycles so i don't use it anymore i use seafoam instead. I been also wondering why my husqvarna chainsaws never give me any fuel problems when they sat all summer and then run 24/7 in the fall to the spring. The gas never went stale even during the hot weather. I only use husqvarna two stroke oil and on the bottle it also says it a fuel stabilizer too. My buddy in the lawn mower shop did say the new gas mixed with two stroke mix only lasts for 30 days. Now i'm in the habit of starting my saws every few weeks to keep them in running condition so the gas won't go stale i even add fresh gas in them too.

On my older husky saw the gas hose actually melted in the handle assembly. The newer gas ate the older rubber.

I'm spending more on mowing the lawn lately even more than snowplowing last winter. Each 5 gallon gas can costs $15 now to fill with high test gas. I bring three 5 gallon cans and one 3 gallon can and there goes $54 just for mowing and my working tractors. I'm thinking about letting my field go to hay and just let it grow.
I'm technically misunderstood at times i guess its been this way my whole life so why should it change now.
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Re: Kohler Viton-tipped needles

Postby Boss Hog » Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:48 pm

Bill I expect your old gas line in the chain saw melted from age, I have seen this happen before the new gas was ever thought of. There are a lot of problems that are caused by other things and not the corn gas.

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Re: Kohler Viton-tipped needles

Postby BigBill » Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:52 pm

Boss Hog wrote:Bill I expect your old gas line in the chain saw melted from age, I have seen this happen before the new gas was ever thought of. There are a lot of problems that are caused by other things and not the corn gas.

Boss


You could be right but my buddy said he was changing a lot of fuel lines in the older chainsaws at that time. My husqvarna saws ran forever and cut a lot of wood they were one of my best investments in power equipment for sure. I have all new ones today with the air injection so called turbo setups. I notice the air filters stay a lot cleaner too. The swede's sure manufacture quality products. I do notice the difference in power between the older and the newer saws. I thought the older saws were faster at cutting, the newer turbo saws are even faster. I want the lastest and greatest new thing that i can have in power equipment, time is money. I have the money and my kid has the time.
I'm technically misunderstood at times i guess its been this way my whole life so why should it change now.
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Re: Kohler Viton-tipped needles

Postby Jack Donovan » Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:53 pm

Well This is a big argument, :shock: But i'm with big bill all the way. 95% of our work in the small engine shop is fuel related.there is hardly a engine MFG out there that doesn't tell you to use non Oxy fuel. Just about all dealers will tell you to use sea fome The MFG"s won't because there's nothing in it for them. I was just reading a cub cadet manual the other day from the 60's and it says the same thing as every one says now. When done using , Shut fuel off , Run carb dry , and so on.
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Re: Kohler Viton-tipped needles

Postby Merk » Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:50 pm

by Jack Donovan
But i'm with big bill all the way. 95% of our work in the small engine shop is fuel related.there is hardly a engine MFG out there that doesn't tell you to use non Oxy fuel.


I did some checking on fuel requirements for small air cooled motor(s).

Kohler's FAQ site-Check questions #8 and #9:
http://www.kohlerengines.com/maintenance/faqs.htm

Briggs and Stratton's FAQs:
http://engines.myfaqcenter.com/Answer.a ... d=fuel&sel ectCats=Other
Here is the infomation that is on Briggs and Stratton's site:
What type of gas is good for my engine?
All 4 stroke cycle spark ignited engines

Fuel must meet these requirements:

Clean, fresh, unleaded gasoline.

A minimum of 87 octane/ 87 AKI (91 RON). High altitude use, see below.

Gasoline with up to 10% ethanol (gasohol) or up to 15% MTBE (methyl tertiary butyl ether), is acceptable.

Stihl (check question#3):
http://www.stihlusa.com/faq.html

Honda(question #7 in General Infomation:
http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/faq/

Lawn-Boy(Look under mowers-General infomation. Nothing found on their site about using-not using ethanol in the fuel-they do have a good recomendation on fuel storage-life of fuel. (They have some infomation on higher than recommended octane fuel):
https://support.lawnboy.com/portal/s...7&PageID=19514

Poulan:
http://www.poulanpro.com/node5722.aspx#QA3

Tecumseh (look at page 7):
http://www.tecumsehpower.com/CustomerService/BSI.pdf

Echo
(Look under Alternative Fuel Usage. They do not want the homeowner to use ethanol....gasohol is ok???? possible double talk????):
http://www.echo-usa.com/faqs.asp
Here is some interesting info on gasohol:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_..._fuel_mixtures

quote from that site:
Low ethanol blends, from E5 to E25, are also known as gasohol, though internationally the most common use of the term gasohol refers to the E10 blend.

Most small motors manufactures in the above links says E10 is ok to use.
Kohler manual says it is ok to fuel that has up to 10% ethanol since our Cub Cadets have Kohlers in them.

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by Jack Donovan
I was just reading a cub cadet manual the other day from the 60's and it says the same thing as every one says now. When done using , Shut fuel off , Run carb dry , and so on.


The Cub Cadet manual aslo says to use clean fresh fuel. You be surprise how many don't shut the fuel off. The majority of the problems I see are the ones who don't use fresh gas or use don't shut the fuel off. Then they use snake oil products like sea foam and only make the problem worse. Kohler recomends against using additives like sea foam.

by Jack Donovan
Just about all dealers will tell you to use sea fome The MFG"s won't because there's nothing in it for them.

The only thing dealers around here will tell the small motor owner is to use fresh fuel that is less than a month old and use a fuel stablizer. The dealer/repair shops around here ask how old is the fuel-type of container fuel is stored in and where do you store it when the small motor owner brings a motor in for repair. The dealers that recomends products like sea foam NEED to send their small motor techs back to school.

The teaching manuals I have stress clean fresh gas.

Your wasting your money using 92-93 octane fuel and products like sea foam when your problem is poor fuel storage/handling. Running a motor on 92-93 octane fuel can hurt the performace of that motor too.....
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Re: Kohler Viton-tipped needles

Postby Matt Kirsch » Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:55 am

This is all great, but...

Why does a clean, dry, FRESH OUT OF THE PACKAGE needle and seat stick?

That's my problem. Every time I get one of these bleeping Viton needle/seat sets, they stick together right out of the package!

They haven't even SEEN gas yet, let alone been exposed to good gas, bad gas, old gas, ethanol, seafoam, or anything else.
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Re: Kohler Viton-tipped needles

Postby Peter Person » Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:38 pm

Matt,
Aron is having the same problem with his 100. He bought the Kohler rebuild kit and installed it correctly (had Cecil supervising) and the engine ran great.
A couple of weeks has gone by and the best he can do is low idle. As soon as he moves the throttle up it dies. Took the carb apart and watched as the float drops, the needle stays in the seat.
I did read in another thread how someone soldered a wire to the needle and clipped it to the float so the float would pull the needle down as the fuel level dropped.
We'll try PaulB's suggestion.

Thanks,
Peter
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Re: Kohler Viton-tipped needles

Postby wdeturck » Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:36 am

Are you getting your carb kits from the same dealer? His stock may have been bog ht more than 10 years ago(he bought a large amount and they aren't the vitron needles?) and he should throw them all out? I run into that problem on othe manufacture kits that have been sitting on the shelf. I have a Tecumseh engine in a flymo that I keep getting bad seats(That is the rubber part).
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