184 Burning Engine Oil

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tucker86
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Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:36 pm
Zip Code: 00000
Tractors Owned: International 184 w/ Woods 59LB Mower
Location: Midwest USA

184 Burning Engine Oil

Postby tucker86 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 5:02 pm

Hello, new member to the forum.

I inherited a 1976 International 184 with the Woods LB59 mower deck back in the spring. The tractor has been in my family for roughly 20 years and has been well cared for and is still in very good condition and runs and starts well. The tractor seems to have most of the power it should. I am able to mow normal length grass with 60% - 70% throttle with no issues.

I did an oil and filter change after acquiring the tractor and I have discovered the engine burns quite a bit of oil. It is on track to use approximately one quart of engine oil for 20 hours of operation. I am not new to Cub tractors and this is the fourth one I have operated. I am noticing significantly higher oil vapor from the breather than the other machines I used 15 to 20 years ago. I am also seeing some oil burning through the exhaust when the engine is under heavy load. I have not had a chance to check the valve clearance yet and I doubt it has been checked in over 20 years. I was wondering if it is possible if some of the oil loss could be from poor valve clearance and blow-by through the valve guides? Or is this more typical of piston ring wear? I have not done a compression test yet, but I have read on some threads that sometimes this test is inconclusive on these engines. Since I have essentially no money invested in this machine and it is in real good shape, I am considering doing some engine work over the winter but I want to eliminate all simpler possibilities first.

Thanks in advance.

Eugene
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Re: 184 Burning Engine Oil

Postby Eugene » Sun Jul 12, 2020 6:36 pm

tucker86 wrote:I was wondering if it is possible if some of the oil loss could be from poor valve clearance and blow-by through the valve guides? Or is this more typical of piston ring wear?
No on the valve stem clearance. Yes on the piston ring wear.

Conduct the compression tests.

Welcome
I have an excuse. CRS.

BigBill
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Re: 184 Burning Engine Oil

Postby BigBill » Sun Jul 12, 2020 7:16 pm

What oil wt are you using?

Compression tests record it first. Change the motor oil to a 30wt oil. Next add half can of seafoam to the crankcase, the other half to the Gas tank, run it. Run it. You will see the rpms pick up after mowing. Seafoam will free sticky valves, stuck rings. After the seafoam treatment is done do a compression check again.

Report back to us. If the compression is up, a good tune up with a valve adjustment and timing will make it better, I see that sticky valves and stuck is a problem when these tractors are left sitting for decades. Using a upper lube like seafoam helps.

I had problems with blowby and running rough with my loboy. Seafoam fixed it. Using seafoam at first may foul plugs at first as it removes the carbon from everything.

After my cub was running awesome I switch to Mobil delvac 15/40 oil. I use this oil in my cubs. Note My cub cadets get 30wt. Or they burn oil.
I'm technically misunderstood at times i guess its been this way my whole life so why should it change now.

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ricky racer
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Re: 184 Burning Engine Oil

Postby ricky racer » Sun Jul 12, 2020 7:52 pm

Eugene wrote:
tucker86 wrote:I was wondering if it is possible if some of the oil loss could be from poor valve clearance and blow-by through the valve guides? Or is this more typical of piston ring wear?
No on the valve stem clearance. Yes on the piston ring wear.

Conduct the compression tests.

Welcome

Yeah, what Eugene said.... :roll:
1929 Farmall Regular
1935 John Deere B
1937 John Deere A
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1952 John Deere B
1953 Farmall Cub

tucker86
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:36 pm
Zip Code: 00000
Tractors Owned: International 184 w/ Woods 59LB Mower
Location: Midwest USA

Re: 184 Burning Engine Oil

Postby tucker86 » Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:51 pm

BigBill wrote:What oil wt are you using?

Compression tests record it first. Change the motor oil to a 30wt oil. Next add half can of seafoam to the crankcase, the other half to the Gas tank, run it. Run it. You will see the rpms pick up after mowing. Seafoam will free sticky valves, stuck rings. After the seafoam treatment is done do a compression check again.

Report back to us. If the compression is up, a good tune up with a valve adjustment and timing will make it better, I see that sticky valves and stuck is a problem when these tractors are left sitting for decades. Using a upper lube like seafoam helps.

I had problems with blowby and running rough with my loboy. Seafoam fixed it. Using seafoam at first may foul plugs at first as it removes the carbon from everything.

After my cub was running awesome I switch to Mobil delvac 15/40 oil. I use this oil in my cubs. Note My cub cadets get 30wt. Or they burn oil.


To clarify, the tractor had only been sitting over the winter before I got it and had been regularly used for mowing for nearly 20 years (not sure about the history before that). Before I changed the oil the tractor came with, I did a SeaFoam crankcase treatment by following the directions which was probably 20% of the can or so. I did not use the SeaFoam in the fuel. I am currently using Shell Rotella T4 15/40 oil with a new oil filter. I am working out of town this week, so I won't have a chance to check the engine compression until Saturday.

When you run the half can of SeaFoam through the fuel, is that a full tank of fuel? Or less?

Thanks for the suggestion, SeaFoam is a lot cheaper than an engine overhaul so it would be worth a try first. I don't have much money into the machine which is in very good condition, so it would be worth rebuilding if that is what ends up being required.
1976 International 184
Woods LB59 Mower

BigBill
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Re: 184 Burning Engine Oil

Postby BigBill » Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:33 pm

Half a can of seafoam in the gas tank, the other half in the crankcase oil. Run it for a while. I mowed almost two acres when the idle became higher from the seafoam.
I'm technically misunderstood at times i guess its been this way my whole life so why should it change now.

outdoors4evr
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Re: 184 Burning Engine Oil

Postby outdoors4evr » Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:48 am

The instructions on the can suggest 1 bottle treats 16 gallons of gas. A half-bottle would go nicely in a tank full of gas, but that would take me 3 mowings to use up. (I would be tempted to run that in 1/2 a tank)
184 w/ Creeper & 3-Point
IH 3160a Mower
IH Model 15 Tiller
IH-54 Blade

BigBill
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Re: 184 Burning Engine Oil

Postby BigBill » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:02 pm

I find for some reason the c60 engine if it’s not run that often needs a upper lube treatment in the fuel tank and crankcase. I go 1/2 can to the fuel tank, 1/2 can to the crankcase to shock it. I find it frees stuck valve guides, lubes valve seats, frees and reseats piston rings.

My feeling is with any of these tractors who knows what they went thru before we got them.
How often was the oil and filter changed? Greased? Airfilter changed?

Being a mechanic for decades I only use what I can see results in. The only additive I have used is seafoam, mystery oil, rislone. All my equipment gets the seafoam treatment. We used CD-2 at the car dealers for sticky hydraulic lifters which we don’t have in the c60 engine.
I'm technically misunderstood at times i guess its been this way my whole life so why should it change now.

wrink3
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1977 IH 184
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Re: 184 Burning Engine Oil

Postby wrink3 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:36 pm

I have a question. He says the tractor has good power and starts and runs well, so how oil usage is too much? As noted above oil viscosity is a factor as is ambient temperature when working the tractor. But it seems to me that one quart every 20 hours operating 60-70% throttle does not represent a lot of oil usage. Not great but reasonable for for 44 year old tractor if the tuning, compression, etc. are within limits.

Eugene
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Re: 184 Burning Engine Oil

Postby Eugene » Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:32 pm

wrink3 wrote:I have a question. He says the tractor has good power and starts and runs well, so how oil usage is too much? As noted above oil viscosity is a factor as is ambient temperature when working the tractor. But it seems to me that one quart every 20 hours operating 60-70% throttle does not represent a lot of oil usage. Not great but reasonable for for 44 year old tractor if the tuning, compression, etc. are within limits.
Personal choice. Some folks can not stand a drop of oil burning or drippiing off an engine.

I have WD Allis Chalmers that uses and drips engine oil and drips hydraulic fluid. Repairs to the WD Allis' hydraulic system would cost $500- in parts. At the current rate of hydraulic fluid loss it would take me around 125 years of use to recover the repair costs.
I have an excuse. CRS.

tucker86
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:36 pm
Zip Code: 00000
Tractors Owned: International 184 w/ Woods 59LB Mower
Location: Midwest USA

Re: 184 Burning Engine Oil

Postby tucker86 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:48 pm

Eugene wrote:
wrink3 wrote:I have a question. He says the tractor has good power and starts and runs well, so how oil usage is too much? As noted above oil viscosity is a factor as is ambient temperature when working the tractor. But it seems to me that one quart every 20 hours operating 60-70% throttle does not represent a lot of oil usage. Not great but reasonable for for 44 year old tractor if the tuning, compression, etc. are within limits.
Personal choice. Some folks can not stand a drop of oil burning or drippiing off an engine.

I have WD Allis Chalmers that uses and drips engine oil and drips hydraulic fluid. Repairs to the WD Allis' hydraulic system would cost $500- in parts. At the current rate of hydraulic fluid loss it would take me around 125 years of use to recover the repair costs.

At this point in time I am just trying to figure out what is the cause so I can properly evaluate what to do. I have ran three other Cubs in the past and was surprised to see how much oil this one was burning compared to those.

Oil is inexpensive, so replacing what burns is one option. If SeaFoam treatment can help, then this is also an inexpensive option. At the same time, I am planning to use this tractor as my mower for a long time, so engine work could be an option as well. As I had previously mentioned, the tractor is in very good condition and I have essentially no money into it, so I would not be opposed to doing some engine work either during the winter to get it ready for a lot of future use.

I appreciate the thoughts so far as there is a lot of combined knowledge and experience on the forum. I'll plan on doing a compression test this weekend when I get back home from work. This will be a key piece of information in determining what the likely cause is.
1976 International 184
Woods LB59 Mower

BigBill
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Re: 184 Burning Engine Oil

Postby BigBill » Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:50 pm

If all the above fails try a 30 wt motor oil. This may stop the burning oil and give you more time to plan a possible rebuild. It’s good to have a plan.

Note, with my cub cadets I was using 10/40wt oil the top shelf Mobil super oil I used all my life, mowing my two acres(cadet) I was going thru a quart of oil every second mowing. I switched to a 30wt oil and it stopped using oil.
I'm technically misunderstood at times i guess its been this way my whole life so why should it change now.

outdoors4evr
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Re: 184 Burning Engine Oil

Postby outdoors4evr » Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:58 am

Well you said it is burning oil (not leaking oil). I suppose a leak would be very evident as it would show up on the mower deck.
The only way for a flathead engine to burn the oil would be through the rings.

A full rebuild kit can be purchased for about $500. The cylinder bores would need to be bored or honed to fit the new pistons.
https://www.agkits.com/International-En ... b-C60.aspx

A partial rebuild parts list can be purchased from HamiltonBobs or another vendor IF you can reuse the pistons. Pistons push you into a price range that warrants the full rebuild kit.
https://hamiltonbobs.com/cart/search/en ... lo-boy-mm5
$88 Engine gasket set
$46 Piston Rings
$68 Rod Bearings (because you are there already)
$54 Main Bearings (because you are there already)
$10 Brass Washer Gasket Set
$18 Oil Filter (2 of them)
$32 Air Filter (Cuz you know this hasn't been changed in years)
$50 Oil, Gasket Sealant, brake clean, etc.
$100 Misc tools you might not have. (Flex Hone, etc)
$60? Have TST machine the rear seal retainer and put in a new seal. (it is a lot more work, but better to do it now)
184 w/ Creeper & 3-Point
IH 3160a Mower
IH Model 15 Tiller
IH-54 Blade

Eugene
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Re: 184 Burning Engine Oil

Postby Eugene » Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:46 am

tucker86 wrote:At this point in time I am just trying to figure out what is the cause so I can properly evaluate what to do.
Compression tests will provide the needed information, rebuild or wait. Then conduct a full engine tune up which will help with the engine power. Finally, look for external leaking engine oil.
I have an excuse. CRS.

BigBill
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Re: 184 Burning Engine Oil

Postby BigBill » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:39 am

I’m one of those who despises oil leaks. There unacceptable. I was weened on those split graphite and split rubber main seals. Try replacing those split graphite seals while the engine is in the car. I even made offset and angled T for turning out main bearings for when the engine was in the new car knocking. They had a run of .002” under sized crankshafts. We’re replacing bearings on every new car. They put std bearings in a .002” under crank.

One engine the head mechanic gave me the wrong size thrust main bearing. The bearings were not in a box together. I asked for plastic gauge. The head mechanic says we don’t use plastic gauge here. As I assembled the engine it got tighter to turn. I plastered the oil pan with sealer. This was on a Friday night. Monday morning the head mechanic said one main bearing was the wrong size. Why so much sealer on the pan. I said I don’t get call backs. Then I said plastic gauge would of caught that bearing being undersized. I knew the bearing was the wrong size I put extra sealer on the pan. He fixed it over the weekend.
I'm technically misunderstood at times i guess its been this way my whole life so why should it change now.


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