Electrical problem on Cub Lo-Boy 154 - *solved, that was EZ*

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Postby Bigdog » Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:20 pm

Remove the solenoid and use an ohmmeter to find out for sure which is the control terminal. The supply / load terminals won't matter.
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Postby 888 » Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:41 pm

Bigdog wrote:Remove the solenoid and use an ohmmeter to find out for sure which is the control terminal. The supply / load terminals won't matter.


In keeping with your signature He who asks is a fool for five minutes. But he who does not ask remains a fool forever I'm going for the 5 minute fool option. I'm still learning to use a VOM and I don't know how to check what you have suggested. Is there a link you know of I can use to learn this or I can Google it. I've been taking night classes wintertimes at the local tech college and my next class planned this winter was electrical checking processes with VOMs, I've been taking motor controls etc.

I do know how a simple way to weld now...just clip a jumper wire on the outbound side of the relay and touch the other end to the positive battery post. I created some nice little weld beads on the positive post but there was no sign of a click or attempt to start. As bonus points, when removing the clip I shorted across the solenoid terminals (key was off so it wasn't the small terminal, it was dead) and threw more sparks. No start, no click.

Sounds to me like I need to get a "correct" relay. I remember my Ford relays were marked, these aren't.

Well, I'm going to be gone all next week so you'll get a break from the questions. I see you are in Ohio, so am I, I'm taking the kids up to Lake Erie for vacation next week, back on friday. If you think I should get a relay, I'll order one tonight and it should be here when I get back, 5 minutes to swap it out.

Thanks for the help BD.
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Postby Bigdog » Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:59 pm

Where in Ohio are you? We can have a micro cubfest any time you're available.
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Postby 888 » Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:18 pm

Bigdog wrote:Where in Ohio are you? We can have a micro cubfest any time you're available.


Northwest of Dayton, about midway between 70/75 interchange and the Indiana border along 70. Zip is 45309.

I should really write down everything I've done to this poor thing. It came with a horse farm a friend bought, thrown in because it wouldn't run. Fresh gas and a new battery and it was back to cutting pastures for my buddy a few years. He parked it last fall and it wouldn't start this winter. My friend tinkered with it for a while (thus the duplicate starter relay), gave up and I got it for what I hear is a decent price. He said it needing wiring help (he wasn't lying there) I figured, I've had 90+ cars of all kinds, buy fix and sell, how hard can a tractor be??? Most recently, I found a voltage regulator cooked from water seeping under the seal, crap photo follows:

Image

replaced that, fixed all kinds of other stuff, and I'm still where I started and probably where my buddy gave up.

It needs a lot of body TLC but it will be good for what I want....I'm building a barn and need something to haul lumber up the hill and maybe plow the driveway in the winter. Came with a 3260 belly mower that I don't need, nothing bigger than my JD 180's 38" deck fits between the trees out front.

Here's a photo, it's a pretty sad little tractor right now but I have the tools to fix it up, all I need is a sputter, some sign of life.

Image

I know it ran last year, I've known this guy for 20 years, he wouldn't lie. It must be something simple.
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Postby Eugene » Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:26 pm

Bigdog wrote:Remove the solenoid and use an ohmmeter to find out for sure which is the control terminal. The supply / load terminals won't matter.


The supply / load terminals are the larger ones on the side of the solenoid.

There are either one or two smaller terminals on the front of the solenoid. If your solenoid has only one small terminal this is the "S" terminal used to activate/control the solenoid. If you have two smaller terminals - look closely directly under the smaller terminals, they will be marked with a "I" and an "S". You want to connect your ignition supply to the "S" teminal.

Or as BD says the "S" terminal is the control terminal.

Napa number for one of the several 12 volt solenoids that will work is ST95. The Echlin part number may also be ST95 since it is in a NAPA/Echlin box.

I just checked continuity on a known good solenoid. The only continuity was between the "S" terminal and the metal mounting bracket/ground.

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Postby 888 » Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:33 am

Eugene wrote:
Bigdog wrote:Remove the solenoid and use an ohmmeter to find out for sure which is the control terminal. The supply / load terminals won't matter.


The supply / load terminals are the larger ones on the side of the solenoid.

There are either one or two smaller terminals on the front of the solenoid. If your solenoid has only one small terminal this is the "S" terminal used to activate/control the solenoid. If you have two smaller terminals - look closely directly under the smaller terminals, they will be marked with a "I" and an "S". You want to connect your ignition supply to the "S" teminal.

Or as BD says the "S" terminal is the control terminal.

Napa number for one of the several 12 volt solenoids that will work is ST95. The Echlin part number may also be ST95 since it is in a NAPA/Echlin box.

I just checked continuity on a known good solenoid. The only continuity was between the "S" terminal and the metal mounting bracket/ground.

Eugene


My solenoid only has one small control terminal and the two larger ones for the supply and load. None are marked so I assumed the larger ones didn't matter as far as connection to supply and load.

I'll check at NAPA for the ST95, there is a NAPA uptown. I can ask them about direction of supply and load connection.

What concerns me is that I jumpered from the positive post of the battery directly to the "outbound/generator" side of the existing switch, effectively bypassing the relay/solenoid, and there was no reaction from the starter/generator but some welding happened at the postive post when I touched the jumper to it. So I wonder if the solenoid is the problem at all.

I guess I can jumper directly from the positive post to the generator A terminal and bypass the cable between the solenoid and the A terminal. I cleaned the connections at both ends already. Maybe I can do that when returning from vacation on friday.

thanks for the help

Joe
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Postby BigBill » Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:51 am

Try Pushing the clutch pedal down really hard while turning the key to start it. My interlock switch on my int154 cub is very hard to push down on my clutch pedal, its a bear sometimes when my knee hurts. Someday I just might bypass that switch....
I'm technically misunderstood at times i guess its been this way my whole life so why should it change now.
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Postby Into Tractors » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:07 am

Joe, I'm late in getting in on your post, been busy. Your starter; This is the starter/generator type that starts the tractor via a belt, right?

Just so happens I live pretty close to you. Can't confirm anything yet, but I'm willing to come and get my hands dirty with you if you can't get this thing figured out in a day or so? I want to read thru the entire post and do some research myself, seems like everyone has already made the right suggestions to you so far though.
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Postby Bigdog » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:14 am

It's beginning to sound like the starter / generator is bad since your test drew sparks. I'd remove it and test it or have it tested.
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Postby Eugene » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:28 am

One more check to try.

Disconnect the battery cable terminal at the starter/generator. Set vom to 20 volt DC before testing. Hook volt meter positive to cable end and negative to ground. Try to start engine.

If solenoid is working the vom will show battery voltage.

If no voltage, solenoid. If voltage, starter/generator.

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Postby 888 » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:51 am

Guys, thanks for the suggestions and offers.

I'm walking out the door right now for vacation, be back with you all late on friday. :D
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Postby 888 » Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:33 am

Eugene wrote:One more check to try.

Disconnect the battery cable terminal at the starter/generator. Set vom to 20 volt DC before testing. Hook volt meter positive to cable end and negative to ground. Try to start engine.

If solenoid is working the vom will show battery voltage.

If no voltage, solenoid. If voltage, starter/generator.

Eugene


Ok, got back from vacation only to find that the computer got blasted somehow while I was gone (I turned it off to prevent this), it wiped out the keyboard and mouse etc. Fixed that last night so I'm back at it today on the tractor.

You're testing the voltage flow through that heavy cable from the solenoid/relay to the starter with this one, right? I've already seen nothing from the solenoid/relay with the key turned and 12v at the center terminal from the safety switch. This last test eliminates the cable and the solenoid, right?

NAPA uptown has the ST95 solenoid/relay in stock for $30 if I need it, I'd rather be sure of what's wrong before throwing more money at it. I might just go up and look at it. Did we ever determine if these are directional? They aren't marked for orientation, I assumed it doesn't matter and the small terminal creates magnetism to pull a connection between the two poles into place. I can ask NAPA to be sure.

I'll post up the results.

thanks
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Postby 888 » Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:49 am

I went to NAPA and determined that what was installed (and also my spare) is a 12v continuous duty relay. If anything, it is beefier than I need but should still work. I'll try the final test and swap out/repair the generator unless someone has another suggestion.

Thanks for the help.

Joe
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Postby 888 » Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:59 am

Into Tractors wrote:Joe, I'm late in getting in on your post, been busy. Your starter; This is the starter/generator type that starts the tractor via a belt, right?


Yes, you can kind of see it in the photo below. I think it has been replaced recently.

Image

Into Tractors wrote: Just so happens I live pretty close to you. Can't confirm anything yet, but I'm willing to come and get my hands dirty with you if you can't get this thing figured out in a day or so? I want to read thru the entire post and do some research myself, seems like everyone has already made the right suggestions to you so far though.


Thanks for the offer. It you're in YS, you're probably a half hour to forty minutes away. I used to go up there for the Village Festival in the 70's, I had friends that lived on North College St, they transferred to San Diego with the other NCR people years ago. You could either take 35 west or 70 west out to my place, I'm midway between 35 and 70, between Brookville and New Lebanon. If I get totally stuck and you want to come out, that would be great. I'm hoping this starter/generator is toasted and changing/repairing it will fix the problem. If not.......

Joe
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Postby 888 » Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:15 pm

I didn't get to make a test with the existing starter/generator. I was retensioning the drive belt because it seemed a bit loose and one of the "ears" mounting the starter to the engine bracket broke off. You can see in the photo above that there was a piece of threaded rod instead of the correct bracket and it put a lot of side load on the ear casting and it broke. I had to round up a replacement starter and bracket and got those today. Yesterday, I installed the new solenoid/relay and a new dash face plate, replaced the cable from the relay to the starter and did a bunch of checking and cleaning.

Since the starter was off, I took it with me to be sure everything was the same and the guy I got the replacement parts from noticed that my starter sprocket would not turn at all. After some serious persuasion, it turns but with a lot of resistance.

I used a breaker on the crank pulley a long time ago to turn the engine and check for problems but I was on the other side of the engine and the belt must have been slipping around the starter pulley instead of turning it.

I just finished reinstalling/rewiring everything (bracket and starter) a little while ago and as much as I would love to try it, the area I am working in is a swamp and there is a pond in the battery tray that got under my tarp. Remembering my adventures welding things accidentially, I'm going to wait till it dries out a little to try it, it should be in the 90's this week and dry.

I'll post up results but I am pretty hopeful that the locked up starter/generator assembly is my problem. What do you guys think? :?:
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