Overheating question??

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Overheating question??

Postby BigBill » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:10 am

Has your int154/184/185, fcub ever overheated doing hard work?? Is the cooling system good enough for a backhoe or should i add a 12 volt cooling fan infront of the radiator? I'm going to add a temp gage too so i can watch it. Any thoughts or ideas?
I'm technically misunderstood at times i guess its been this way my whole life so why should it change now.
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Re: Overheating question??

Postby Garland Terry » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:57 pm

Don't know why I am trying to give you advice! With some of the knuckle headed questions I ask. But I would think that capacity not air flow would be the issue. How are you going to drive this beast. Will the hydraulic pump run it and if so I think that a side saddle oil cooler would help as much as anything. I have seen these attachments in pictures and they look way cool. I rented a little backhoe several years ago and it just ran on a 20 hp wisconsin 2 lunger. It worked great. not fast but I dug a 150' trench 3' deep to run an under ground electrical service. I still wonder how to serve the hydraulics. keep us informed. GT
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Re: Overheating question??

Postby Bermuda Ken » Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:29 am

You could add an electric fan to the tractor if you wanted. They can be bought for little or nothing from an auto scrap yard. By adding the fan, it might "over cool" the engine.

A lo-boy with mounted backhoe would be a cumbersome beast to move around. Better get a BOBCAT mini excavtor. They are a digging machine.
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Re: Overheating question??

Postby George Willer » Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:34 am

Food for thought... The cooling system was designed to get rid of all the heat the engine could make. It was designed to be a balanced system. As long as the "fire" built in the engine isn't field engineered it should be fine. Actually, a backhoe isn't really much of a load.
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Re: Overheating question??

Postby BigBill » Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:51 am

Thanks GW & guys I just want a littler FEL/backhoe i can do small tasks with. The engine will be left in its stock form. I don't plan on pushing it, i'm in a low and slow mode right now anyway. I just want to design it and build it once with no big problems that i can address now if i can forsee it happening.

I'm going to strip down the 154 and run a seperate hydraulic pump for the FEL/Backhoe with a 5 gallon oil tank. I'm thinking of using the orginal 154 hydraulic pump with the power steering. But i may add a 1 gallon tank for that so i can use the 90/140wt gear oil in the tranny and final drives. I'm looking for a smaller machine that i can move around with my 3/4 ton truck and my 10k trailer. I need to do work in VT at my place up there too. So i need to move it myself.

I'm trying to stay away from buying a high priced larger machines due to its usage, i don't have that much to do but i need it to be there so i can use it at all times. But i don't want to break open my piggy bank to have it. With the parts i have already i'm thinking about $1,500 to $2,000 should totally finish it. With the $$ i can save i can buy more IH stuff(tractors). Plus its fun to build things and i won't be building things for too much longer so i have a short window to do this.
I'm technically misunderstood at times i guess its been this way my whole life so why should it change now.
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Re: Overheating question??

Postby Garland Terry » Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:52 pm

WAITJUSTADARNMINUTETHEREBUDDY!!! You just said 154 and power steering in the same sentence. Is there an animal. And are YOU building a hoe? Cause I want one too!! :{_}: :{_}:
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Re: Overheating question??

Postby BigBill » Sat Jan 24, 2009 5:25 pm

Garland Terry wrote:WAITJUSTADARNMINUTETHEREBUDDY!!! You just said 154 and power steering in the same sentence. Is there an animal. And are YOU building a hoe? Cause I want one too!! :{_}: :{_}:


With the smaller used 3pt hoes going for $3,500 and $4,000 and higher i'm going to build one with an FEL for my int154 for a lot less. I been thinking of driving out to ohio to get a 154 frame and engine but i found one locally that was affordable recently for this project.

I'm going to build the whole machine from the frame up. Yes i'm looking into the power steering option too. I have most of the FEL parts sitting here with most of the steel i need for the fabrication. I need to get my gas tanks(oxy/acc) filled on monday so i can start cutting the steel. First i need to make sure the engine runs ok or if it needs rebuilding. It hasn't run yet but it feels tight when i turn it over by hand with no noises or clunks. I need to run it and drive it first. My next plan is to strip the tractor down and add a subframe from the front to the rear and remove the PTO assembly and save it for my other 154 for parts. I'm going to drive the new hydraulic pump off the twin pullies from the pto driveshaft. I figure to run a smaller pulley on the pump so it will turn faster at a lower rpm so i won't need to have the engine at the max rpm. I figure about 1/4 to 1/3 throttle or maybe 1/2 throttle at the most. Remember with loaders the GPM (gallons per minute "flow") is more important than the PSI (pressure). I also plan on using steel tubing were i can too. I was a "tuber" when i built the CNC machines so its an art to do multiple tubing with all of it having the same bends and distance apart. I plan on using shot pieces of hydraulic hoses were the bends are(hinge points). Both my sons are going to get there feet wet on this one. Its the passing of the torch at the sametime too.

I need to find a heavy duty drill press next. (pawn shops)
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Re: Overheating question??

Postby RaymondDurban » Sat Jan 24, 2009 6:54 pm

Bill, photos, photos, photos!!!
Sounds like a fun project, let us know how it works out.
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Re: Overheating question??

Postby Landreo » Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:12 pm

Remember with loaders the GPM (gallons per minute "flow") is more important than the PSI (pressure).


Why is that? Higher pressure equals a smaller cylinder, less weight, less cost. As long as the cylinder is thick enough to prevent bending, I would choose high pressure over higher flow.
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Re: Overheating question??

Postby Garland Terry » Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:44 am

Landreo wrote:
Remember with loaders the GPM (gallons per minute "flow") is more important than the PSI (pressure).


Why is that? Higher pressure equals a smaller cylinder, less weight, less cost. As long as the cylinder is thick enough to prevent bending, I would choose high pressure over higher flow.


All the above tis true tis true. But a backhoe,like other tillage tools, is weight driven. The digging comes from the ground not being able to withstand the weight of the tractor and giving way. That is why if you dig too deep at one scoop then the tractor moves and not the dirt. All of this is true everywhere except my farm. My ground is so hard that when it is time to work ground I have some of the boys over at the air base carpet bomb the field first. "When I was a kid we had a mayonaise farm. One day my brother was out plowin with a backhoe and the ground was so damn hard that sparks flew up and caught my face afire. Daddy come runnin oft the porch and put it out with a rake...... thats why I look like this." :lol: :lol: All this talk about backhoes brought up an old funny does anybody remember the above line and where it came from??
:big afro:
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Re: Overheating question??

Postby BigBill » Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:02 am

Food for thought when picking hydraulic pump for a FEL or backhoe.

Having the correct balance of flow (GPM) for the cylinders is very important to the movement(speed) so its controllable yet not too slow. This is more important than pressure(PSI). Too much GPM's and things will jerk too fast and something will break or bend in the process.

On my neighbors cub cadet 147 with the danco FEL i have to stop and wait for the bucket to scoop. Rather than driving up to the pile and continue to go slow forward while it scoops. Its a little slow. If my 6GPM is too much i can calm it down a little with a flow valve. If the GPM isn't high enough were stuck with it unless we change the pump.

I just built a 30ton log splitter and added a hydraulic operated crane with a grapple to lift the 40" plus logs and found out the hard way that 11GPM @ 650PSI can throw a log into the next state. I even put 3/8" hoses on it instead of the 1/2" hoses i used for the system. Now i have two choices to calm it down. One is to use adjustable flow valves or add 1/16 npt or 1/8" npt pipe plugs inside the fittings and drill a small hole in the pipe plug to adjust the flow and buffer some of flow thru a smaller orfice. This crane moves so fast it can hurt you really easy. We got thru some of the wood by going slow on the lever for now but it has to be fixed soon. I can't imagine a front end loader or backhoe this way. My log splitter on the high end is 3,500lbs @ 3.5 GPM with a 5" bore cylinder it actually cuts thru the logs that won't split.

When i was building the cnc machines we would put the pipe plug inside the fitting and drill a small hole in it for the gages to buffer some of the hydraulic pressure so the needle on the gage wouldn't jump and break. It was done on all the gages.

Now don't forget you also need 1 gallon of oil per GPM of the pump too. If you have a 6GPM pump you need a 6 gallon oil tank to keep the system cool other wise the heat can be a problem. Heat is the biggest killer of hydraulic systems. Dirt is another no no with hydraulics. You need a filter on the return line and a fine screen on the suction line too. If we do it right the system will last for many years. The last log splitter i built lasted for over 25+ years.
I'm technically misunderstood at times i guess its been this way my whole life so why should it change now.
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Re: Overheating question??

Postby Landreo » Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:45 pm

My comment about weight was related to a loader. I keep weights and my scarifier attached to the back of my tracked loader otherwise I would go up instead of the bucket. A 154 with a FEL is a loader not a digger and the more weight on the front means more weight needed on the back. But, I still do not understand why GPM is more important on a loader than with other hydraulic applications. If the cylinders move too fast then the GPM is too high, does not matter if it is a loader or not. My old dozer had 6 inch cylinders to move not all that much weight. A modern dozer of the same weight would have cylinders half that size. That is the effect of 1000 PSI system Vs 2500 - 3000 PSI system.
Higher pressure means you need less flow to accomplish the same work. Less flow means less heat, smaller tank, etc..
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Re: Overheating question??

Postby Eugene » Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:03 pm

I have a backhoe mounted on a weighted WD Allis. The backhoe will drag the tractor with locked brakes.

I think you will need a bigger tractor. Or, have to add a lot of weight to the front and rear of a numbered lowboy.

Next question. How much will you use a backhoe? Perhaps it would be cheaper to either rent one or hire someone for an occasional job.
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Re: Overheating question??

Postby outdoors4evr » Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:34 am

I think a lot of this has probably been taken out of context. When building implements, proportion is everything. Size the bucket for the tractor. Size the hydraulic system for the bucket.
A 154 is a compact tractor and will have a relatively small bucket. Size everything appropriately.
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Re: Overheating question??

Postby BigBill » Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:46 am

outdoors4evr wrote:I think a lot of this has probably been taken out of context. When building implements, proportion is everything. Size the bucket for the tractor. Size the hydraulic system for the bucket.
A 154 is a compact tractor and will have a relatively small bucket. Size everything appropriately.


Exactly, I just want a smaller sized tractor that can do a little digging. The cub cadets i have seen with FEL's and backhoes are a tad too small for me. But the cadets with the fel's are perfect. I just want something a little bigger to build and play with. I have work in CT and in VT to get done. I can transport the smaller machine myself too.
I'm technically misunderstood at times i guess its been this way my whole life so why should it change now.
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