My first post--Question?

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My first post--Question?

Postby Giles » Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:55 pm

I am a 64 year old mechanic. The question I have has got me stumped, and it does not make sense.
I have a 154 cub loBoy that I have owned for 26 years and have serviced it regularly. I changed all fluids about two years ago and the transmission just started to leak from the gearshift. All THREE hi-trans fluid levels are correct with new filter.
It has a 60" deck with hydraulic lift, and the tractor is in exceptionally good condition.
It will leak fluid from the top of the transmission, through the shift mechanism, and will run down the side of the defferential. The leak is especially bad when using second gear. SOMETIMES--the fluid level is about one pint overfull which I drain off and add to the side gear boxes. Again, SOMETIMES, the fluid is full of air after setting for several days and then moving out of my shop, about 15 foot.
I cannot understand how the fluid is migrating from the side gear boxes sinse their level is lower then the transmission.
If I could see a transmission diagram, I could figure out the problem.
Does anyone have any ideas?
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Re: My first post--Question?

Postby John *.?-!.* cub owner » Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:44 am

Since the side boxes are opne at the brake bands, there is not much of anywya for fluid to migrate form one to the other. I would strongly suspect condensation (or rain accumulation if stored outside) is increasing the fluid level in the transmission. In a standard cub you would notice the oil being milky, but with a number series using Hytran in the tranny, the Hytran holds the water in suspension and does not turn milky until it is very bad.
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Re: My first post--Question?

Postby Giles » Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:46 am

John *.?-!.* cub owner wrote:Since the side boxes are opne at the brake bands, there is not much of anywya for fluid to migrate form one to the other. I would strongly suspect condensation (or rain accumulation if stored outside) is increasing the fluid level in the transmission. In a standard cub you would notice the oil being milky, but with a number series using Hytran in the tranny, the Hytran holds the water in suspension and does not turn milky until it is very bad.

Tractor has never been stored outside. There is definately NO CONTAMINATION of fluid. Since the fluid level is controlled by adding through the fill level plug, overfill would be difficult. I am prone to believe the problem is related to the hydraulic system or the transmission is not vented, but I cannot find a vent. The lift works flawlesly.
Fluid level is never consistent after storage, sometimes low and sometimes high. Sometimes immediatly after moving a short distance, the fluid is full of air and bubbles out fill plug. Other times, I can mow for two hours with no foaming but the fluid comes from the shift lever assembly. Fluid has to travel up nearly a foot to leak from the top of the transmission.
I dred tearing this machine down only to find a simple fix was in order.
I guess I will have to get my tools out!
I know all of this sounds rediculous, however the problem is as described.
THANKS for your interest.
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Re: My first post--Question?

Postby Landreo » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:17 pm

Not much that can cause this. I would suspect that engine oil is getting into the pump and up to the transmission. Have you checked the engine oil?
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Re: My first post--Question?

Postby Giles » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:36 pm

Landreo wrote:Not much that can cause this. I would suspect that engine oil is getting into the pump and up to the transmission. Have you checked the engine oil?


Engine has never used oil, always full, checked every time tractor is used. Transmission fluid is red.---THANKS---
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Re: My first post--Question?

Postby Jim Becker » Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:18 pm

Maybe a leak on the suction side of the hydraulics is pulling air in that foams the oil up.

What kind of oil are you using? Higher grade hydraulic oils have an antifoam additive.
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Re: My first post--Question?

Postby Giles » Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:42 pm

Jim Becker wrote:Maybe a leak on the suction side of the hydraulics is pulling air in that foams the oil up.

What kind of oil are you using? Higher grade hydraulic oils have an antifoam additive.


That's what I am thinking about the foaming. However it only does it ocassionally. Mowed with it today, still have leak with no foam.
Lift works as it should with no noise.
I have used I.H. Hydraulic hi-trans for years because that's what my manual says to use.
The tractor has no leaks except this one.
I plan to remove all the sheetmetal and try to find a "vent".
When I find the problem, I will post.
I greatly appreciate all the suggestions I have received.
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Re: My first post--Question?

Postby SONNY » Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:50 pm

I already have the seat, pto cover, pto and shift tunnel off my 185,---I can look at it and see if I can find a vent location for you. thanks; sonny
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Re: My first post--Question?

Postby Giles » Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:36 pm

Thanks Sonny---I would appreciate that.
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Re: My first post--Question?

Postby RaymondDurban » Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:55 am

The vent is on top, at the very rear of the transmission. It is a flush type brass element vent. As has been mentioned earlier, it is a near impossibility for oil to escape the finals and enter the transmission, or for the engine oil to enter through the pump. Jim has the best possibility for air entering the system through a leak, I would think in the cylinder as it only has pressure up (suction). The air would answer the foaming, but not the overflowing. I think condensation buildup would be the reason for the leaking out of the shifter.
I would reccomend you start from scratch. Drain the finals and transmission and start over. Fresh 90wt in the finals and Hy-tran in the transmission/hydraulics.
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Re: My first post--Question?

Postby SONNY » Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:23 am

Just looked at the top trans. cover on the 185.---no vent to be found on trans. or top of either final on mine!

Looks like the shift tower is the vent.--NOW,--- to the right of the shift tower a few inches, is the hyd. RETURN line fitting,(just a thinwall tube with a 90 degree bend in it and hose clamped to it)!
just wonder if somehow the return flow is spraying against an internal part and getting into the air stream then up and out the tower?---could be a deflector/baffle inside broke off?----return fitting is really close to the tower.
I know this dont explain the foamy fluid, or the migration of it!
When I bought mine the hyd system was empty as was ONE final,-- but the other final was full!---BUT--- I have a very bad external leak from under either input shaft OR the countershaft cover right below and behind the clutch,(havent got that apart yet, gotta tear more of the tractor apart to even get in there to it!)
Tried to find a good trans. parts pic, but did find the one on MESSIKS IH parts look-up diagram, and it dont show much either!
I didnt mean to hijack your thread,-- but maybe this will give you some input/ideas of more possible areas to look/think about!!! thanks; sonny
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Re: My first post--Question?

Postby RaymondDurban » Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:49 am

Here is the vent on one of my 154s:
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Re: My first post--Question? MORE INFO.

Postby Giles » Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:43 pm

MORE INFORMATION CONCERNING THIS WEARD PROBLEM----I removed the trans. fill plug and installed a 1/2" pipe extending about four inches up. I drove the tractor a few hundred feet and the oil was foaming and squirting out the top of the pipe.
The position of the mower deck, down, float, or up made no difference concerning the foam.
Now, I have a Case backhoe and I have completely rebuilt most of the hydraulic valves and cylinders. I know how hydraulics work.
I haven't any ideas where to start on this foaming problem. I have to figure where the system is getting air.
The lift works as it always has, a little whining noise when lifting with louder squeel, when cylinder has bottomed out accompanied by slight engine rpm drop.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to where I start?
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Re: My first post--Question?

Postby Jim Becker » Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:57 pm

Like I said before, I'd be looking at the suction side of the pump. Looks to me like there are 2 tubes, each with a flare joint on each end. There are 3 other joints with o-rings. I'd be looking at all 7 of those joints as well as checking the tubes for leaks from wear or cracks.
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Re: My first post--Question?

Postby Giles » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:46 pm

Jim Becker wrote:Like I said before, I'd be looking at the suction side of the pump. Looks to me like there are 2 tubes, each with a flare joint on each end. There are 3 other joints with o-rings. I'd be looking at all 7 of those joints as well as checking the tubes for leaks from wear or cracks.

I completely restored this tractor about 15 years ago, and it still looks exceptionally good with NO Fluid leaks. As with all equipment, there is some oil seepage with dirt accumilation in some areas of the machine.
It is just strange that it can be sucking air, which it apparently is, and have no indication of fluid leaking.
I will completely pressure wash the tractor tomarrow and check as you advised.
I am sure the problem will be simple to fix, but the find is another story.

Just good to know that people with like interest care and are willing to help by sharing their opinions.
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