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grey hairs multiplying after todays work

IH CUB Lo-Boy Series - 154, 184, 185 Forum -- Questions and answers to all of your Lo-Boy related issues.
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kevin72
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grey hairs multiplying after todays work

Postby kevin72 » Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:56 pm

ok folks, Im stumped and i admit it. Ive got a IH Cub Lo-Boy 185 with the c-60 engine. The darn thing will start right up at pretty much any throttle setting, it may need a little bit of choke when the engine is cold, but nothin out of the ordinary. The problem is that once its cranked its runs like a dream for 30 to 45 seconds (hot or cold makes no difference) then it will begin to "burp" back through the carb. Once this begins the engine begins to loose power and RPMs until it finally stalls out (the stall out process takes anywhere from 20 to 40 seconds and the throttle setting does not seem to be a factor in how long it takes). Once the engine dies and you wait 30 seconds or so you can crank the engine over and the whole process starts over. I originally thought i had a fuel delivery problem, so the tank has been cleaned, have fresh gas, cleaned bowl and screen, verified that cutoff was working, and replaced carb. All with no luck.
Then I had an old timer that has never failed to lead me in the right direction on issues like this tell me the condensor was going bad. So then I focused in on the ignition system, replaced plugs, wires, cap, rotor, coil, points and condensor. Set the points to .020 per the counter man @ my local IH dealer. I have played with the timing and have run it enough to have found the "sweet spot" but i dont have a timing light anymore (let a buddy borrow it and it never came home). None of this helped either.
If anyone out there has a thought or suggestion I would love to hear it. Im at my wits end, and have worked on this thing on and off for 6 months. Thanks for your time in advance.
KJ

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Donny M
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Re: grey hairs multiplying after todays work

Postby Donny M » Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:59 pm

Since you've cleaned or replaced everything but the coil give it a shot. Coils can heat up and some of the windings can open when hot causing poor spark. About $15 at NAPA.

kevin72
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Re: grey hairs multiplying after todays work

Postby kevin72 » Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:11 pm

replaced the coil too, any other thoughts. Thanks for taking the time to read my post, KJ

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bob in CT
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Re: grey hairs multiplying after todays work

Postby bob in CT » Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:22 pm

Since you have done everything, I guess it is back to square one. There is a drain plug in the bottom of the carb. Get a container and open this plug and drain fuel and see what happens with time.

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Re: grey hairs multiplying after todays work

Postby Donny M » Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:27 pm

Agree with Bob, but just another thought; the valves could be very tight causing them to remain partially open when heated, have you adjusted the valves lately :?:

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Re: grey hairs multiplying after todays work

Postby Eugene » Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:22 pm

First. Sounds like a fuel flow problem. Then perhaps, 2nd, a carburation problem.

Remove the fuel line from the carb inlet. Check fuel flow. If good, remove the plug on the bottom of carb and check the fuel flow. If still good. Carburetor repair time.

What type of fuel line? Is it partially plugged? If rubber, replace it. Same with in line fuel filter.

Coil problems usually show up after 15 or 20 minutes of engine operation.

Static time the engine.

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Re: grey hairs multiplying after todays work

Postby kevin72 » Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:27 pm

I havnt touched the valves. Didnt see the need to do any thing to them. Do you think the heat could affect them so quickly? And then cool off enough in 30 seconds to make that much of a difference? Im not being a smart a$$ here, I just really dont know. The process I described in my original post has been reapeted as many as 12 times in a row, after that its usually time for me to walk away before i break a toe on the dang thing, if you know what i mean.
Another thought, do yall think deposits on the valves could produce something like this? I was really not wanting to tear into the engine unless absolutely necessary.
KJ

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Re: grey hairs multiplying after todays work

Postby kevin72 » Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:34 pm

Eugene, im working with a brand new carb, have double checked and tripple checked fuel flow. I have a metal fuel line. And there is no in line fuel filter. Only the screen in the bowl, and another screen on the elbow on the carb that allows it to connect to the fuel line. I have already removed the screen on the carb elbow. Im tellin yall this thing just doesnt make sence but I appreciate all yall trying to help, keep the ideas comin!
Thanks, KJ

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Re: grey hairs multiplying after todays work

Postby Jim Becker » Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:16 pm

Two things I advocate:
1) Daignose first, then fix.
2) Do the easy things first.

So here is my suggestion. Unhook one spark plug wire from a spark plug. Hold or tie it close to the plug so you will be able to see the spark. Start the engine and watch the spark until the engine quits. Did the spark go away or get weak? If so work on ignition. Did the spark continue normally? If so, leave the ignition system alone and look elsewhere.

With that answer, you can select form the other suggestions already given to continue diagnosis.

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Re: grey hairs multiplying after todays work

Postby bob in CT » Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:34 pm

Good advice Jim.

Ever run around looking for a wrench or document only to find out it is in your hand? I have.... The point being is many times when you are wound up the answer is right in front of you. We had a recent post and it was similar. Would run great and then lose power and shut down. Then it would run again. All the time it sounded like fuel, but we were assured that was checked out. Turns out it was checked out but there was a pebble in the tank that would rotate on axis and one of the positions shut off the fuel supply. An intermittent problem like that drives you crazy and on that tractor a lot of things were checked out because the fuel system was not the problem. It turned out it was.

You have told us there is nothing wrong with the fuel system. OK. Probably nothing wrong with the timing, coil, points, condenser, cap, rotor, plugs too. But there still is a problem with one of them or the tractor would run. My best advice is that you unlearn everything you "know" about the tractor and start with a methodical step-by-step approach. Fuel, spark and time and it will run. BTW, did you use copper core wires?

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Re: grey hairs multiplying after todays work

Postby kevin72 » Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:43 pm

Jim, thats a great tip. Thanks buddy! Ill do it in the morning.

Bob, of course you're right. Im going to have to start over at some point. Im just really frustrated right now. The problem really presents itself as a fuel problem but I just dont know where else to look so I guess I just have to go back to square one as somebody mentioned earlier. If anything comes to mind for any of yall please pass it along. Thanks again, KJ

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Re: grey hairs multiplying after todays work

Postby Bigdog » Sat Mar 20, 2010 5:02 am

The backfiring through the carburetor makes me think it is a sticking valve. It may be very tight and not take much heat to make it stick.
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Re: grey hairs multiplying after todays work

Postby Gary Dotson » Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:08 am

Kevin, did you do an actual fuel flow test? Put a container under the carb, remove the plug and allow the fuel to flow for at least a minute, ovserving that you have a full stream and not subsiding to a trickle. Gut feel tells me that you still have a fuel flow obstruction somewhere. Keep hammering at it, you'll get it.

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Re: grey hairs multiplying after todays work

Postby gitractorman » Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:42 am

I'm with Gary on this one. I have seen LOTS of tractors, even 1 or 2 year old tractors, that have a leaf, grass, piece of plastic, rag, etc., in the gas tank. The thing about these things is that they typically float, until the fuel starts going out the bottom of the tank (i.e. tractor running) then they suck down to the fuel tank outlet and block it. Shut it off, let it sit a second, and she'll fire right back up.

Last year I had a 2 year old garden tractor that a guy GAVE me because he was sure that the fuel pump was bad. I even told him that was not likely and I would fix it for him and he said he'd had enough of it. It would start and run perfect for about 2 minutes, then die. All that I did was take the rear fenders off and take the fuel tank off and dumped it into a drain pan. I pulled out a FULL handfull of pine needles and leaves. I rinsed the tank a couple of times with gas, put a new fuel filter in the line, and put it back together and went out and mowed my lawn - for 2 hours. Ran perfect.

With a tractor the age of what you have, I would definitely take the fuel line off and let the tank drain out completely, and see what happens. The best thing about this is it takes almost no effort and costs you nothing. If the tank drains out completely, and you find no dirt/sediment, debris, then you can put the old gas right back in and head off to something else.
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Re: grey hairs multiplying after todays work

Postby Chris Todd » Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:05 am

Is it possible the vent hole in the gas cap is plugged? I'd try the fuel flow test for several minutes with cap on then crack the cap open and observe. Or just clean the hole and hit the starter. Boy it sure sounds like a fuel flow problem. You'll get it figured out. :wink:
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