184 with external hyd pump for loader help ??

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184 with external hyd pump for loader help ??

Postby tractordad » Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:38 pm

I am looking at a 184 with a loader. It currently has an external pump driven off the PTO for the loader hydraulics. I am told the 3 point works fine and it originally had the loader running off the tractors hyd system but was told it had a bypass valve to adjust and never worked right, very slow. That is why the external pump was added. Not knowing these tractors well, can a bypass block be installed just like a regular cub when adding a loader and plumb accordingly ?
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Re: 184 with external hyd pump for loader help ??

Postby RaymondDurban » Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:01 pm

The numbered series do not have a touch control unit, so there is no place to mount the typical bypass block. Depending on what kind of loader it is, there may not have been enough flow for the loader, so an external pump was added.
The factory bypass valve is under the drive tunnel cover. This was to switch between the mid mount lift and the rear 3 point lift. They could not be used in conjunction.
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Re: 184 with external hyd pump for loader help ??

Postby Hamiltonbob » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:48 am

Before you buy a diverter to run a loader off the "Internal" pump, talk to someone who has done it. I was told by someone who tried running off the internal pmp and the loader ran VERY slow. He changed to an external pump. He ran his off the front of the engine (fan belt?) so he didn't need to remove his mower belt each time he used the loader.
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Re: 184 with external hyd pump for loader help ??

Postby b52c130 » Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:26 pm

Tractordad, Not a single one of the various loader manufacturers that I have run across ever used the IH engine mounted hydraulic pump to run the loader (the gallon per minute volume of that pump is just too small). All the various loader manufacturers used a rear PTO mounted hydraulic pump to run the loader. The IH 1050A Loader had an available 'dual' PTO pulley so that both the loader hydraulic pump and the IH Mower could be run at the same time (of course, unless you removed the mower drive belt from the dual pulley - the mower blades would be spinning around all the time that you were using the loader - not good). Some loader owners who wanted to leave their mowers on have mounted a loader hydraulic pump on the left side of the loader frame near the engine crankshaft. This was driven by a belt off the front of the engine. I have never been able to get decent pictures of exactly how or where the drive belt was secured to the front of the engine.
I hope that this helps - NJDale
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1050A Loader with 3260 Mower and 3 Point Hitch on 154 1.JPG
154 with 1050 Loader and 3260 Mower with engine mounted loader hydraulic pump
1050A Loader with 3260 Mower and 3 Point Hitch on 154 1.JPG (33.06 KiB) Viewed 738 times
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Re: 184 with external hyd pump for loader help ??

Postby tractordad » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:46 am

Thank you to all. I have never dealt with this style of tractor before. I have a rm59 3 point that will run off of this tractor but with the rear mounted hyd pump, I can not use the mower. I can see using the internal hyd system is out. I may go engine mount but I don't think it is going to be very cost effective.
Last edited by tractordad on Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 184 with external hyd pump for loader help ??

Postby Myron Mixon » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:40 am

Does anyone have pictures of an external pump mounted on the loader frame and running off the front of the motor?

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Re: 184 with external hyd pump for loader help ??

Postby dirtbuggy » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:40 pm

one of the problens of the loader is that street-l,s whjere used on the cylinders, they cut the flow of oil in about half. I removed mine put close nipples in and regular elbows helped. The relief valve on the tractor itself is adjustable, got to know what precautions to take while doing it. An external pump can be used. My loader is setup for one,If you use a external make sure that a relief valve is setup with in it.Have numbers for shims in the tractor vaval also
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Re: 184 with external hyd pump for loader help ??

Postby BigBill » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:04 pm

hamiltonbobs cubs lists a small hydraulic pump and a larger hydraulic pump that mounts on the engine.

On my project 154 with the fel/backhoe my problem was i need 3,500 tpo 4,000 rpm for an extra hydraulic pump and the PTO is only 1,000rpm. I need a new pto shaft and i'll raise the ratio off the drive shaft so the pto turns between 3,500 to 4,000 rpm at the higher rpm setting on the throttle. We need to go by the new hydraulic pumps rating.

On one of my int154's it has the mid mower rocker shaft and the rear 3pt hitch too there is a selector valve in the floor panel infront of the seat that sends the hydraulic pressure either to the rocker shaft or the 3pt seperately. To add a fel (front end loader) you may need run the loader from the exhaust on the system, you can tap into the return like with another two control valves for the loader.This way the mower will still lift and the 3pt will still work too.
I'm technically misunderstood at times i guess its been this way my whole life so why should it change now.
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Re: 184 with external hyd pump for loader help ??

Postby RaymondDurban » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:16 pm

BigBill wrote:.... and the PTO is only 1,000rpm.... .

You sure about that Bill???

BigBill wrote:.... To add a fel (front end loader) you may need run the loader from the exhaust on the system, you can tap into the return ....

Are you talking about tapping into the return line in the original system to feed an additional external pump to run a seperate hydraulic system for the front end loader??? Why would you do this instead of having a seperate resevoir inside the frame for the loader, and forget about the extra plumbing and valves? Two completely seperate systems would be much easier, and a lot less problems.
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Re: 184 with external hyd pump for loader help ??

Postby BigBill » Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:38 am

They do say the orginal pump does run the FEL ok. If you wanted to save the pto to drive something with the 3pt hitch you can tap into the orginal hydraulic system for the fel. Otherwise the 3pt can't be used with pto driven attachments.

I believe all the number series tractors (154/185/184) are normally 1,000rpm on the PTO unless someone changed the diameter of the pulley on the driven shaft. We must keep in mind its also a reverse rotation than a normal PTO. This is why we can't adapt the 540rpm standard 3pt hitch stuff to the number series tractors without an adapter with a reverser that changes the direction and the speed too. These are very expensive and rare.
I'm technically misunderstood at times i guess its been this way my whole life so why should it change now.
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Re: 184 with external hyd pump for loader help ??

Postby RaymondDurban » Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:51 am

PTO speeds on a 184 and 185 are 2050 and 1880 rpm at high idle and under load.
PTO speed on a 154 is 1970 and 1800 rpm, high idle and under load.
All three are quite a bit more than 1000.
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Re: 184 with external hyd pump for loader help ??

Postby BigBill » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:55 pm

Someone told me these were 1,000rpm pto's in the past and i never questioned it. I read on the 154 forum after i asked over there and heard the pto rpm is closer to the engine rpm.

Now i need the pto shaft speed of 3,500 to 4,000 rpm for the hydraulic pump for the fel/backhoe project. Having the higher rpm pto speed already at the engine speed changes my pulley diameter to make the correct speed.(rpm) For the extra hydraulic pump. My orginal hydraulic pump will drive the power steering.
I'm technically misunderstood at times i guess its been this way my whole life so why should it change now.
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Re: 184 with external hyd pump for loader help ??

Postby FirstVette » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:50 pm

POSSIBILITY: If you're comfortable with fabrication tasks, you might try buddying an electric clutch with the existing PTO Pulley. Use the Pulley for the Hydraulics and the Electric Clutch to turn the Mower on/off. Electric clutches are widely used on a variety of tractors for just this purpose (usually to separate Transmission drive from Mower Drive).
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Re: 184 with external hyd pump for loader help ??

Postby rrexp4 » Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:47 am

if you are still looking for photos of a 185 with a external mounted pump run off from the crank pully i can send you pictures of mine that i put on mine with a ih 1050a loader
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Re: 184 with external hyd pump for loader help ??

Postby Landreo » Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:07 pm

rrexp4 wrote:if you are still looking for photos of a 185 with a external mounted pump run off from the crank pully i can send you pictures of mine that i put on mine with a ih 1050a loader


I would like to see the photos. Please post or send to my PM address.
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