Grinding when Shifting from Neutral to Any Gear

IH CUB LoBoy Series - 154, 184, 185 Forum -- Questions and answers to all of your LoBoy related issues.

Moderator: Team Cub

Forum rules
Notice: For sale and wanted posts are not allowed in this forum. Please use our free classifieds or one of our site sponsors for your tractor and parts needs.

Re: Grinding when Shifting from Neutral to Any Gear

Postby WestDeerPirate » Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:50 pm

I have the replacement "pucks" the type that are a wood dowel with hard plastic around it and I plan to replace the stock ones with this. I own the parts manual, the I&T Shop Service Manual, I have the cluitch schematic Page 38 and rthe description Page 39 of how to adjust and care for the clutch and the clutch brake.

I have removed the PTO cover panel in the rear of the tractor, the seat and the seat bracket as well as the main tunnel cover between the dash column and shifter. I think I know which part it is that holds the "pucks" that I am going to replace because the condition is back. I started this thread about this time last year. Had the tractor serviced at Turner Tractor near Evans City, PA. It got me through last season OK but now I am tearing the thing apart. If I can't fix it i'm selling this thing and moving on. But, I love this old Cub so I am going to give it one more shot.

From the clutch diagram on Page 38, looking at Illustrration 38A I see the Clutch Brake Lining which I have to assume is the part that I am going to replace. I am also assuming having not taken it apart yet that the Wood portion or dowel portion of the replacement part is to make contact with the friction plate?

Do I remove the self locking nuts in order to get to the bat wing looking bracket that holds these pucks? In general, anyone that has replaced these, can you provide me with some instruction? It's really important that I try to get this thing working again.

Right now I can push in the clutch pedal and the clutch continues to spin. It never slows down and it never stops. Even jamming a wood rod in there to try to slow it down by riding the wheel along with the clutch pedal pushed all the way down does nothing to slow it. I dont want to grind gears to get it to stop so I need to know what else I can do.

Help!!!! :cry:
WestDeerPirate
Cub Star
Cub Star
 
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:39 pm
Location: West Deer Township, PA
Zip Code: 15044
Tractors Owned: 1970 International Cub Low Boy 154

Re: Grinding when Shifting from Neutral to Any Gear

Postby Eugene » Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:42 am

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=76858

Read the entire post listed above. Last part of the post includes photos and instructions on replacing the clutch brake pucks.
I have an excuse. CRS.
Eugene
Team Cub Mentor
Team Cub Mentor
 
Posts: 12499
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: Mo. Linn
Zip Code: 65051
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Grinding when Shifting from Neutral to Any Gear

Postby BigBill » Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:27 am

Make sure your clutch pressure plate fingers are all evenly spaced when looking down at the pressure plate verticallly. If you have one bad spring in the pressure plate the plate will lift uneven and the clutch is still engaged by the one finger still dragging on the disc. On one of my int154's this just happened one spring has started to unwind. Do to its age from the 60's its normal wear.
I'm technically misunderstood at times i guess its been this way my whole life so why should it change now.
BigBill
5+ Years
5+ Years
 
Posts: 5705
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:02 pm
Location: in northern usa
Zip Code: 00000

Re: Grinding when Shifting from Neutral to Any Gear

Postby WestDeerPirate » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:45 pm

Well, today I removed the tunnel cover, the rear seat bracket, the PTO cover, the fenders along with the deck to expose the entire Clutch assembly as shown in the diagrams that I have. I loosened the self locking nuts on the clutch brake bolt so that I could slip this off of the hinge plate through which the bolt passes. Once I slipped the bracket out of the way I was able to get to the "Clutch Brake Lining" inserts or pucks as they are sometimes called.

I removed the old ones, which were a asbestos looking brake pad material visible on the ends of a plug that fits into the bracket that holds them in place. The new ones I have are the plastic and oak dowel insert types that are sold on Ebay and other places as well. They appeared to be a good 1/4" longer than the old ones which appeared shot. I replaced the worn out set with the new ones, made some minor adjustments, started the tractor and hoped for the best. Nothing doin though. Pretty bummed now.

The new pucks did nothing to stop the flywheel from spinning with the clutch in place. My tolerances were good and triple verified. Sucks.

I manually pushed on the back of the bracket that holds the pucks in place and tried to force the flywheel to stop which of course ended with the tractor stalling. What else can I attempt to adjust or what does this problem sound like to the pros at this point?? Can't get the tractor in any gear, have the back half torn down and I am at a loss. Suggestions and instructions would be greatly appreciated.

What would adjusting the clutch rod adjusting yoke accomplish? What else can be a culprit at this point?
:help: :lost:
WestDeerPirate
Cub Star
Cub Star
 
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:39 pm
Location: West Deer Township, PA
Zip Code: 15044
Tractors Owned: 1970 International Cub Low Boy 154

Re: Grinding when Shifting from Neutral to Any Gear

Postby Jim Becker » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:50 pm

Did you do the checks BigBill spelled out?
User avatar
Jim Becker
Team Cub
Team Cub
 
Posts: 11920
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2003 3:14 pm
Location: MN
Zip Code: 75048
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Grinding when Shifting from Neutral to Any Gear

Postby Eugene » Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:21 pm

WestDeerPirate wrote:The new pucks did nothing to stop the flywheel from spinning with the clutch in place. My tolerances were good and triple verified. Sucks.

I manually pushed on the back of the bracket that holds the pucks in place and tried to force the flywheel to stop which of course ended with the tractor stalling.
The clutch brake pucks only stop the pressure plate and transmission input shaft from turning -------after the pressure plate has released the clutch disk.

You have to first depress the clutch pedal to release the clutch disk from the pressure plate. At or near the end of the pressure plate release, the pucks slows down/stops the pressure plate.

The flywheel is located on the back of the engine. The clutch brake pucks engage the back side of the pressure plate not the engine flywheel.
I have an excuse. CRS.
Eugene
Team Cub Mentor
Team Cub Mentor
 
Posts: 12499
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: Mo. Linn
Zip Code: 65051
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Grinding when Shifting from Neutral to Any Gear

Postby WestDeerPirate » Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:30 pm

Here are the steps that I have taken so far. Tractor in neutral I start the engine. Once it's run for a time I push the clutch pedal in which used to slow the fly wheel to a stop. Now, I can push the clutch in and I see and hear the pucks riding the back of the flywheel but nothing happens in the sense that the flywheel slows. In daylight tomorrow I will check to see if the condition that BigBill describes is occurring or not. Whn I push the clutch pedal in right now I see the bracket that have been working with move. I do not see the triangluar arms of the clutch with the springs move much at all. Should any parts shift towards the transmission? I can take video with my phone of what is occurring. Is there a way to host a video here?
WestDeerPirate
Cub Star
Cub Star
 
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:39 pm
Location: West Deer Township, PA
Zip Code: 15044
Tractors Owned: 1970 International Cub Low Boy 154

Re: Grinding when Shifting from Neutral to Any Gear

Postby Eugene » Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:55 am

Do you have the service manual for the tractor? Section titled "Main Clutch Shaft and Engine Clutch" provides detailed instructions on how to set up the throwout bearing clearance from the pressure plate fingers and then the clutch brake arm. Also contains pictures and diagrams on how the parts are assembled.

Just guessing. You have the clutch brake bolt adjustment to tight - short. To short or the clutch brake bolt incorrectly assembled will prevent the throwout bearing from releasing the pressure plate.
I have an excuse. CRS.
Eugene
Team Cub Mentor
Team Cub Mentor
 
Posts: 12499
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: Mo. Linn
Zip Code: 65051
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Grinding when Shifting from Neutral to Any Gear

Postby BigBill » Sun Mar 17, 2013 4:20 pm

Did you adjust the space between the clutch pressure plate fingers and the throwout bearing at .090" with the clutch pedal fully up? Once the .090" gap is adjusted you need to adjust the gap between the pucks and the flywheel at .010" again with the clutch pedal fully up. Once its all properly adjusted it should work right. Once the gaps are set if the clutch still doesn't release then check the pressure plate to see if its releasing the clutch disc. I check it with the tractor "off" I press the clutch down as i turn the flywheel the clutch is on with the tranny in netural. If it doesn't release the disc check the height of all the pressure plate fingers so there all equal if there not you have a bad spring in the pressure plate. To check this problem of uneven fingers i adjust the .090" gap to the farthest finger that will leave .030" ++++ gap on the other two fingers but the clutch will release for now but the pressure plate will need to be fixed or replaced. Its very hard for us to know whats wrong its like the doctor talking to you on the phone but we''ll try to get you up and running just bare with us.
I'm technically misunderstood at times i guess its been this way my whole life so why should it change now.
BigBill
5+ Years
5+ Years
 
Posts: 5705
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:02 pm
Location: in northern usa
Zip Code: 00000

Re: Grinding when Shifting from Neutral to Any Gear

Postby outdoors4evr » Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:56 am

You can test this out while the covers are off the tractor and the engine is off. (Use a rope or a tiedown to hold the clutch pedal while testing) Put the tractor in third (road gear)
Clutch out, you should not be able to turn the axle or the driveshaft without turning over the engine.
Clutch depressed all the way, the driveshaft should turn with the engine. Rear Axle should not want to turn due to the clutch brake buttons being engaged against the driven disc.
Clutch about 1" up from the fully depressed position, driveshaft should turn with the engine. Rear Axle should turn freely and the clutch brake buttons should not be engaged.
If this does not occur, then your clutch is either not releasing or the clutch brake is engaging too early.
184 w/ Creeper & 3-Point
IH Model 15 Tiller
outdoors4evr
5+ Years
5+ Years
 
Posts: 718
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:44 pm
Location: Davison, MI
Zip Code: 48423
Tractors Owned: 184

Re: Grinding when Shifting from Neutral to Any Gear

Postby WestDeerPirate » Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:58 am

Image

Picture of the tear down

Image

Picture of old puck versus new

Image

Picture of the bracket opened up, clutch is not pushed it here

Image

Pucks installed. No other adjustment made.

When I push in the clutch pedal with the tractor on or off it seems that the spring loaded arms in the 3rd image on the splined gear do not move more than 1/2" and do not appear to engage the gear as I am assuming that they should.
WestDeerPirate
Cub Star
Cub Star
 
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:39 pm
Location: West Deer Township, PA
Zip Code: 15044
Tractors Owned: 1970 International Cub Low Boy 154

Re: Grinding when Shifting from Neutral to Any Gear

Postby Eugene » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:47 pm

WestDeerPirate wrote:When I push in the clutch pedal with the tractor on or off it seems that the spring loaded arms in the 3rd image on the splined gear do not move more than 1/2" and do not appear to engage the gear as I am assuming that they should.
The 1/2" movement of the pressure plate arms is probably about or close to correct. But you need to check and then set the distance between the throw out bearing and the pressure plate fingers at .090".

The gear is part of the drive shaft and is permanently engaged in the clutch disk. The gear/drive shaft's only function is to power the clutch disk. The pressure plates function is to open up, releasing the clutch disk, and then closing up, capturing the clutch disk.

Suggest reading up on the theory of manual clutch operation. Service manual?
I have an excuse. CRS.
Eugene
Team Cub Mentor
Team Cub Mentor
 
Posts: 12499
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: Mo. Linn
Zip Code: 65051
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Grinding when Shifting from Neutral to Any Gear

Postby BigBill » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:22 am

While its all apart i would remove the tranny shifter cover and inspect the shifter forks too for being loose at the sametime then down the road you won't need to take it apart again.

Don't forget to grease your throwout bearing too there is a zerk fitting on the top of it.
I'm technically misunderstood at times i guess its been this way my whole life so why should it change now.
BigBill
5+ Years
5+ Years
 
Posts: 5705
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:02 pm
Location: in northern usa
Zip Code: 00000

Re: Grinding when Shifting from Neutral to Any Gear

Postby Landreo » Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:42 pm

The photos will not load for me so comments are basically made without much information. The pucks are not your problem, the clutch will work without any pucks installed, it will just grind briefly before slowing down. The basic problem is the clutch is not releasing. It can be stuck/rusted to the driven disc (flywheel). Push the clutch pedal in and there should be a small gap between the pressure plate and the clutch disc, if so then try to wiggle the clutch disc to free it. I expect you have no gap when the pedal is depressed and the throwout bearing is not adjusted correctly. The listed gap for the distance between the clutch fingers and the throwout bearing is for a good bearing and a good pressure plate. I expect you have neither. A worn TO bearing will have excessive movement front to back of the bearing face and worn fingers or the pivot pins in the fingers will also allow excessive movement. The TO bearing movement now has to take up those two excessive distances before actually moving the pressure plate. If the pressure plate is not moving when you push on the pedal then adjust until it does move. That should allow the clutch disc to turn free. If so, then you need a new pressure plate or TO bearing. Having the TO bearing always spinning will shorten its life.

I would not wory about the clutch brake pucks or adjustment until the clutch is fixed. It should release without any action from the brake pucks.
Also pull, twist the driven disc, flywheel, to see if it is loose. A worn transmission shaft will allow the driven disc to move backward enough that the clutch may not release.
Landreo
5+ Years
5+ Years
 
Posts: 956
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:10 am
Location: SC, Ridgeway
Zip Code: 29130
Tractors Owned: fcub
1 cyl fcub
154
Earthmaster
JD 40MT
JD 420 crawler-loader
D-2 Cat dozer
AC Model C
Cub Cadets
Red-E
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Grinding when Shifting from Neutral to Any Gear

Postby WestDeerPirate » Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:08 pm

I've come to realize that I do not know enough about clutches to really know what is wrong. But, Landreo your description seems to make the most sense to me. I am going to take your suggestion and see if I can determine if the clutch is in fact stuck.

Push the clutch pedal in and there should be a small gap between the pressure plate and the clutch disc, if so then try to wiggle the clutch disc to free it. If no, then i will check to see if the throwout bearing moves around and go from there.
WestDeerPirate
Cub Star
Cub Star
 
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:39 pm
Location: West Deer Township, PA
Zip Code: 15044
Tractors Owned: 1970 International Cub Low Boy 154

PreviousNext

Return to LoBoy Series - 154, 184, 185

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests