time for rebuild ?

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international
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Zip Code: 14004

time for rebuild ?

Postby international » Wed Dec 24, 2014 1:50 am

:help: My name is steve and i bought a 184 cub loboy about 3 years ago for 800 bucks with a blown head gasket . dissasembled most of machine and painted it , rebuilt carb ,new clutch and head gasket along with a valve adj . my question is is there a spec sheet to mic out the engine for possible rebuild ? this past summer had alot of blowby and weak power i have 18 acres and use this machine year round to mow ,pull trailers and plow snow and dirt . just picked up a skidsteer to have something to use while this machine is down but its not half the snowplow monster my little cub is !!!! i dont have any problems rebuilding it but just want to know if its time to bore or not . the cub has 3 point and cutting breaks if that points to vintage and a 72 inch mower

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randallc
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Re: time for rebuild ?

Postby randallc » Wed Dec 24, 2014 6:23 am

Welcome to the forum from Arkansas. Steve, there is a ton of information on this site about the cub. Look at the manuals, service manuals and tons of information on the headers at the top of each page. For example: http://farmallcub.com/phpBB2/popup/capacities.html.
Lots of folks around your area who are very good to help out with problems.
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gitractorman
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Re: time for rebuild ?

Postby gitractorman » Wed Dec 24, 2014 10:54 am

Yea, it sounds like time for a rebuild. Your description is typical of an engine that's worn. If you tear into it and check the cylinders you may not have to bore the engine if it checks out ok, but honestly, if you use the tractor that much, I'd opt for a full rebuild, sending the block out to be inspected and bored to match new Pistons. You won't really increase the horsepower much but compared to how it was running you'll think you have doubled it!
Cub Cadets 682, 1811, 1864, Simplicity Legacy XL 4x4 Diesel with FEL, 60" mower, 50" Tiller

international
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Re: time for rebuild ?

Postby international » Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:43 am

i sent engine to napa today , been really busy with work .... but is there a real difference in power if i get the flat pistons ? the engine kits are close to half the price or am i looking at the wrong places ? i have the late model with .661 rod bearings and dome pistons figure its best to just bore .20 over and do it right the first time. All the bearings are worn but within tolerance to just replace with std and the valve seats are pounded so getting those cut along with the valves

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John *.?-!.* cub owner
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Re: time for rebuild ?

Postby John *.?-!.* cub owner » Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:38 am

Where are you checking on prices? Normally the machine shop doing the work is the best place. Domed pistons are normally a little higher, and in an engine designed for them will produce a difference, not sure how noticeable, but I suggest going back with them, and as you mentioned, don't overbore more than necessary. Some people like to bore out as much as possible to get more power, but that increase is pretty minimal, I prefer leaving room to do it again in 20 or 30 years when it becomes worn again.
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outdoors4evr
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Re: time for rebuild ?

Postby outdoors4evr » Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:40 am

Don't get the flat pistons! The flat pistons are steel (not aluminum). I pulled a set of flat top pistons out of my 184 (must have not been its first rebuild) and also had to replace a crank. You just can't run the higher RPM's with the flat top pistons.

Here's the best price that I have seen floating around for a rebuild kit.
http://www.agkits.com/International-60- ... d-Kit.aspx
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mjr46
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Re: time for rebuild ?

Postby mjr46 » Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:18 am

international wrote:i sent engine to napa today , been really busy with work .... but is there a real difference in power if i get the flat pistons ? the engine kits are close to half the price or am i looking at the wrong places ? i have the late model with .661 rod bearings and dome pistons figure its best to just bore .20 over and do it right the first time. All the bearings are worn but within tolerance to just replace with std and the valve seats are pounded so getting those cut along with the valves
just did my 184 in the fall....do it right, get the dome pistons and most likely you'll need a valve job and guides......don't skimp, expecially when the motor is out already

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Re: time for rebuild ?

Postby Eugene » Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:58 pm

outdoors4evr wrote:You just can't run the higher RPM's with the flat top pistons.
9000 rpms. Flat topped pistons of cast steel construction in some applications.

The domed pistons will provide a very minor HP increase over flat topped pistons. The biggest noticeable increase in power will come from the engine rebuild.
I have an excuse. CRS.

international
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Re: time for rebuild ?

Postby international » Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:21 am

just looking online for engine kits , the whole reason i took block to napa was to get the valve seats cut ....i think that was a major source of power loss . agkits seem to be the best kit for 450 bucks but not positive if i should bore or not , the bores are good with no scoring or out of round and will accept stock rings without worrying me a bit . just wondering if you guys had any more insight on where to get the kit , would the case dealer be any cheaper ? napa already said they cant get the domed pistons so they are out

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Re: time for rebuild ?

Postby Eugene » Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:29 am

international wrote:but not positive if i should bore or not , the bores are good with no scoring or out of round and will accept stock rings without worrying me a bit.
I would rering the engine and not worry about domed pistons. I would not go to the expense of having the block bored and/or purchasing new pistons.

From my experience, a lot of times on older engines the cylinder bores and pistons are in good shape - - - the rings are worn.
I have an excuse. CRS.

international
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Re: time for rebuild ?

Postby international » Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:36 am

Im pretty sure i need pistons anyway , the number 2 cyl has a crack in skirt and the number 4 is very worn on the sides of skirt . i think the crack came from a bolt for the cam retainer because both bolts were gone upon dis assembly ! no trace of them anywhere in block or pan nor in the oil that i drained out ! otherwise you are correct ,and i would have a cheaper way out ... not that i mind on spending money on this little guy!!!! but the way i see it if i buy a kit anyway its only going to cost machine work to get it .20 over and perfect new pretty bores for the next 30 years or so . i do all my own assembly and have just completed a atomic 4 sailboat engine for my buddys dad ...same flathead 4 but that one had 30 hp ? id looove to be able to get that out of mine !!!

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John *.?-!.* cub owner
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Re: time for rebuild ?

Postby John *.?-!.* cub owner » Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:10 am

I am not much of an expert on rpm and torque curves, just an old hillbilly with practical experience. The 9000 rpm engines with flat top pistons were either built, or rebuilt with specially balanced crankshafts, etc. for that performance.When I was a kid, some of the local stock cars were still running them. To get higher HP out of your C60, you can do it the same way they do the marine C60s, or got the HP in your 184 up to the 15 or so from the 10hp C60 in the standard cub. Turn up the rpm, but the best torque will still be at the 1800 the original engines were designed for. As I understand it, even the ones in the 184 still have their most efficient operation and ability to hold rpm under changing load at 1800 rpm even though they get more HP at the 2200 rpm most of them are run at. Of course if you got 30hp out of your 184, you would need a better clutch, heavier transmission and finals, etc. Maybe some of the guys with better technical and engineering knowledge about these engines than mine will chime in.

I assume (bad thing to do I know) that you were not serious about wishing to get 30Hp out of your cub, but I did learn by accident what can happen if you double the amount of torque that is applied to a cub drive train. I was mowing some very high weeks, etc. with my flail and had the despeeder that is for my Howard Rotavator engaged to make taking down the weeds easier, and just as the rear wheels went down into a depression that they fit right in and had about 10 to 15 degrees of the tread radius engaged rather than just the bottom when the flail mower frame caught on a half buried railroad tie I couldn't see. The top shaft of the left final drive snapped before the governor even opened.
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mjr46
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Re: time for rebuild ?

Postby mjr46 » Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:46 pm

Eugene wrote:
international wrote:but not positive if i should bore or not , the bores are good with no scoring or out of round and will accept stock rings without worrying me a bit.
I would rering the engine and not worry about domed pistons. I would not go to the expense of having the block bored and/or purchasing new pistons.

From my experience, a lot of times on older engines the cylinder bores and pistons are in good shape - - - the rings are worn.
I have extensive experience in this area and I can tell you that such is not the case...........on these tractors after 30-40 years, I have seen guides worn bad, valves split and cylinders out of round, scoring is not the only criteria for needing to bore, and I've seen crankshaft thrust areas worn out.......I did just what you stated on my first go around on the motor......what you are preaching is what we call an overhaul not a rebuild....and in my opinion is half-azzed and I put new rings, honed cylinders and all new bearings..........lasted 2 seasons and tractor didn't have any noticable increase in power........so this past fall I pulled the motor and did the whole full rebuild, got a new crank as thrust was shot, new DOME pistons!!, decked head and block, new valves and guides and valve job, and bored .020 and all new bearings gaskets and governor rebuilt as well as a few other things.........and let me tell you, I can now notice a huge difference in power, it has it's "claimed" 18 hp back........on a 30-40 year old tractor IMO there is no reason to advocate skimping on a rebuild so why not do it the proper way the first time around, would of saved me a bunch. These tractors need all the help they can get in the hp department...... to each his own. :)

Eugene
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Re: time for rebuild ?

Postby Eugene » Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:23 am

mjr46 wrote:I have extensive experience in this area and I can tell you that such is not the case.
I did just what you stated on my first go around on the motor. Lasted 2 seasons and tractor didn't have any noticeable increase in power
Suggest having a discussion with the highly experienced mechanic who overhauled the engine.
I have an excuse. CRS.

international
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Re: time for rebuild ?

Postby international » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:53 am

ok ,thanks guys i ordered new domed pistons , having block bored and head decked new valves and springs and cut valve seats ...leaving everything else alone... just std bearings in crank and rods . i want this little guy to live a while longer as i cant afford a new kubota or other mid size tractor ! gonna paint it right this time too , rattle can international paint faded pretty bad !!!


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