184 rebuild completed

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Bob McCarty
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Re: 184 rebuild completed

Postby Bob McCarty » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:12 pm

Hindsight is always nice. I applaud Phil for trying to fix a problem that no one else (that I know of) had attempted. The price for a new retainer is now $180.00+. Any new approach always has a learning curve, and unfortunately with a Cub it's not like you get instantaneous feedback if something isn't going to work.
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Re: 184 rebuild completed

Postby Rick Prentice » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:38 pm

I am a facts, data, theory person.

The IHC second designed seal and retainer lasted for a long time so something must have been correct with their second design. The original IHC retainer and seal were revised, the seal was changed from a steel cased seal to a rubber cased seal. The retainer boss was thickened. They did not make new dies and use more expensive seals for no good reason. I expect the reason was a high failure rate with the steel cased seals combined with a too thin retainer boss. The revised design apparently worked well. I expect the failure rate was low, I am guessing less than 1/10,000. So repeat what IHC did and there should be a similar success rate. What is the failure rate of the reworked seals and retainer? Alot greater than 1/10,000.

I would like nothing more than to agree with you, but when I was machining retainers, and I did alot of them, an equal amount of R2 retainers came as the R1 retainers, and every one that showed up in my mailbox had a rubber coated seal, R1 or R2 didn't seem to have favorites. I had brand new rubber coated seals to observe the lose fit into the R2s that were stretched also. It'd be nice to know when the first R2 retainer started to leak. In the 60s or 70s maybe, or did the seals wait and just start to leak when farmallcub.com originated.

A rubber seal is that space age polymer that will flex and stay tight in the seal
I wish that were true, I would've only had to machine R1s. I'm really not trying to cause any type of arguments, because I too like to search out facts and what works best. I still have some of the giant snaprings that I started installing towards the end, and sold Phil about 50 rings that he also installed and was part of his CNC process. IS THERE ANY ONE THAT HAS ONE OF MINE OR PHILS THAT HAS FAILED. Just curious.

Another question I always had was why IH made replacement retainers that sells now for 180 dollars and they still bare the same R2 part number. You'd think they would've added something to the metal structure to correct the issue and called it R3.

Rick
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Re: 184 rebuild completed

Postby Dale Finch » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:01 pm

Rick, I sent to tst two re-machined retainers in the last two years that had been done by one of you in either 2011 or 2012. Not sure who, and not sure exact purchase dates, but I do know the second one was installed in 2012. I don't know if Tim still has them.

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Re: 184 rebuild completed

Postby Landreo » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:52 am

The rubber cased seal will eventually fail, the rubber will not last forever but should last 20 years or so. As far as I know, the original seal was steel cased and Jim Becker may have some info on that.

For me it is the thrill of the hunt, why did the reworked retainers fail at such a high rate and is there a solution? I am not selling a service, not a rep for a seal company, and I have no stock in any seal or retainer company. It is all about the hunt.

Luckily, IHC already did the testing and what worked was a rubber cased seal in a usable retainer. Company catalogs can be a good source of info for design. A quick look at a seal catalog such as the Parker catalog gives the answer as to why the reworked retainers failed. I also expect a rubber cased seal placed in a machined retainer it would also fail, too thin at that point. Interesting that the Machinery's Handbook has no listing for seal design.

For those that have or have done the reworking of the retainer, what is the new bore size?

I have no doubts why the reworked retainers are failing, I posted on that years ago. At this point the question could be: What is a solution?

Use a rubber cased seal. I have 3 replacement seals left in my stash waiting for the time they are needed but the seals I have are still available. If the seal appears to fit tight in the retainer then drop the retainer in boiling water for 10 minutes or so. If the seal is still tight after expansion of the retainer then it should be good. If not then I would look for a replacement retainer or a new retainer from Steiner or TM. Still use a rubber cased seal in the new retainer.

If someone does not want to go with a new retainer then try using high temp RTV sealer on a VERY CLEAN retainer and seal. It will likely last for 10-20 years if the RTV was used correctly. Staking the retainer should not be necessary but it is not going to hurt if someone wants some more insurance against a seal popping out of the retainer.

Years ago I looked into having new retainers machined out of aluminum or steel but no local machine shop was interested. I then took a bunch of measurements to machine my own but decided it was not worth the effort. I think a steel retainer would work well but aluminum would also work with a rubber cased seal. In the end, TM has a new retainer for $180 which is less that what a machine shop would charge.

I have no dog in the fight, I have the seals I need and I know what has worked for me in the past. I also truly mean no disrespect to anyone's machining ability but I also see the inherent design flaws with reworking the seal retainers. Why continue down that path?

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Re: 184 rebuild completed

Postby Landreo » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:01 am

A rubber seal is that space age polymer that will flex and stay tight in the seal
I wish that were true, I would've only had to machine R1s. I'm really not trying to cause any type of arguments, because I too like to search out facts and what works best. I still have some of the giant snaprings that I started installing towards the end, and sold Phil about 50 rings that he also installed and was part of his CNC process. IS THERE ANY ONE THAT HAS ONE OF MINE OR PHILS THAT HAS FAILED. Just curious.

Another question I always had was why IH made replacement retainers that sells now for 180 dollars and they still bare the same R2 part number. You'd think they would've added something to the metal structure to correct the issue and called it R3.

Rick[/quote]

Neoprene is that space age polymer but nothing is going to last forever. There are seals with a Viton casing that may last even longer.

I assume IHC did not revise the seal retainer a third time simply because it was working well with a rubber cased seal. I don't think IHC necessarily was looking for a design and materials that will last 50 or 100 years. I also expect the seals that are leaking from the r2 retainer and the NLA National seals are due to the seals being 20,or 30,or 40 years old.

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Re: 184 rebuild completed

Postby Rick Prentice » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:50 am

by Dale Finch » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:01 pm

Rick, I sent to tst two re-machined retainers in the last two years that had been done by one of you in either 2011 or 2012. Not sure who, and not sure exact purchase dates, but I do know the second one was installed in 2012. I don't know if Tim still has them.
Dale Finch


Dale, did your two retainers have the big snapring like this picture,Image , Image
When I told my dad I've been misplacing things and doing stupid stuff----His reply---"It only gets better"

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Re: 184 rebuild completed

Postby outdoors4evr » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:40 am

I would like to echo the applause for the many guys who worked on these to improve upon the design. :hattip:

I would think that a 1980 built 184 would have had all of the engine improvements included. The retainer I removed was an R2 made of aluminum. I have no idea what seal was in there originally, but it had failed.

The retainer (machined in 2012) did not have a snap ring. That probably would have eliminated the need to "stake in" the seal. There was sealant of some form on the inside of mine that looked like indian head. That did not keep it from spinning in the retainer.
I expect the locktite to fail eventually as well, but at this point 4 mowing seasons in, all is holding well.
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Re: 184 rebuild completed

Postby mastercraft » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:47 am

Rick Prentice wrote:
by Dale Finch » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:01 pm

Rick, I sent to tst two re-machined retainers in the last two years that had been done by one of you in either 2011 or 2012. Not sure who, and not sure exact purchase dates, but I do know the second one was installed in 2012. I don't know if Tim still has them.
Dale Finch


Dale, did your two retainers have the big snapring like this picture,Image , Image
Mine had the snap ring and it still spun in the retainer, after staking it and loctite sleeve retainer it has been good for almost 3 years...knock on wood......now I have sealed my fate for it to leak with the first mowing of the 2018 season...lol

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Re: 184 rebuild completed

Postby Jim Becker » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:01 am

One thing to keep in mind is that the loose seals are the result of the retainer warping with age and heat cycles. Machining a warped retainer to accept a different seal will not cause the retainer to quit warping. In fact, the reduced amount of material will probably accelerate the process. A reworked retainer will not last forever.

This old thread has about everything I know about this problem. It is worth rereading the whole thread.
http://farmallcub.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=63197

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Re: 184 rebuild completed

Postby Dale Finch » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:34 pm

Rick, I don't think either of those retainers had the snap ring, but not positive.

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Re: 184 rebuild completed

Postby Shane Nelson » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:26 am

Dale Finch wrote:OK, Shane...I think you've found a good project for another intriguing episode of "What Happened at Work Today"! :lol:

It may happen Dale. Walt could stand a rear main fixing and he may take a road trip to work in the next month or two so I can use him as a test pig :D I don’t know why a metal retainer wouldn’t work, haven’t gotten any response about it, if anyone has any input please share.
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Re: 184 rebuild completed

Postby Rick Prentice » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:42 am

Shane, pm me your address and I'll ship you an R2 retainer, a new IH sold rubber coated seal, a new cr29952 seal, and a giant snap ring. You can try your skills now instead of in a month or two. Everything free of charge as long as you keep a running post of your findings so we all can follow and participate.
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Re: 184 rebuild completed

Postby Shane Nelson » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:54 am

That’s awesome Rick. PM sent. I’ll send you your parts back when I get done with what I need to do.
Last edited by Shane Nelson on Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 184 rebuild completed

Postby Dale Finch » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:00 am

YEA!!! :{_}: :{_}: :{_}:

I love it...another episode to follow and the PERFECT subject! We all need to thank you (and maybe even more important, your BOSS!! :hattip: ) Thanks, too, to Rick!

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Re: 184 rebuild completed

Postby tst » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:16 am

I have rebuilt over 2000 of these retainers with out issue, The problem is that the castings shrink from the heat and old age, they are now "seasoned" and the shrinking has stopped, once they have been machined to the correct size and new seal installed the problem is over, I have been sent retainers that have been machined before that have failed, they had all been machined incorrectly by making the hole to large so the seal comes loose when hot, another issue which helps the seal to fail is the housing is warped on he gasket surface which I flatten, if left warped I believe when it is tightened down on the engine it leaves the housing crooked making it distorted and leads to more failures


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