Clutch question and a bit of a rant

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Dieselrider
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Zip Code: 16656
Tractors Owned: 1977 Cub 184 Lowboy
1979 John Deere 2640
2013 Kubota L3800 TLB
1949 International Cub
Location: West Central PA

Clutch question and a bit of a rant

Postby Dieselrider » Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:33 pm

The rivets came out of my clutch today on my 1977 cub 184 lowboy. Bugger! This leads to my question: Ever since I have had this tractor, the clutch pedal has had very little free play at the lower end when the clutch is depressed. I mean you have to have this thing pressed ALL the way in and then you do get the proper clearance of the clutch plate and the pressure plate but, if you just let up a smidgen (seems like almost no amount)on the pedal you are engaging the clutch. Is this normal or should there be a bit more free play at the bottom? Just seems to be a bit close down there compared to other clutches.

What is a good source for clutch plates? Hamilton Bobs? or should I be going for OEM?

I have plenty of clutch pad left on this clutch-just replaced a couple years ago and I don't know if the lack of clearance has brought on this problem or if it is just a faulty clutch plate. Any guesses?

Now for the rant. What were the engineers of IH thinking on this machine? You are supposed to lower the rock shaft to get the clutch out. Why then would they not weld the nuts to the 1/2 inch bolts that you need to loosen in order to accomplish this to the frame? I remember this from the last time I had to change out the clutch and it is a bugger to get a wrench on those nuts. I accomplished removing the clutch plate and pressure plate this time without doing that step. What a PITA. Not good engineering. Rant over. Thanks

Larry B
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Re: Clutch question and a bit of a rant

Postby Larry B » Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:10 am

First think that comes to mind is that the throwout bearing carrier ears are really worn or the clutch release fork is in backwards.

Larry B

Dieselrider
10+ Years
10+ Years
Posts: 176
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 5:17 am
Zip Code: 16656
Tractors Owned: 1977 Cub 184 Lowboy
1979 John Deere 2640
2013 Kubota L3800 TLB
1949 International Cub
Location: West Central PA

Re: Clutch question and a bit of a rant

Postby Dieselrider » Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:37 am

Larry B wrote:First think that comes to mind is that the throwout bearing carrier ears are really worn or the clutch release fork is in backwards.

Larry B

The yoke could be in backwards, I suppose but, that would mean it has always been in backwards. I'll see if I can tell from the manual which way it goes. Here are a few picks. Don't have one of the yoke but will try to get one later.
Image
The clutch plate.

And the pressure plate. Too much wear? Thanks
Image

Dieselrider
10+ Years
10+ Years
Posts: 176
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 5:17 am
Zip Code: 16656
Tractors Owned: 1977 Cub 184 Lowboy
1979 John Deere 2640
2013 Kubota L3800 TLB
1949 International Cub
Location: West Central PA

Re: Clutch question and a bit of a rant

Postby Dieselrider » Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:33 pm

According to the pics in the manual, the yoke is in the right way. The wear on the throw out bearing does not look too bad. Should I replace the pressure plate? Could it be worn enough to cause these symptoms?

Larry B
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Re: Clutch question and a bit of a rant

Postby Larry B » Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:39 pm

If it were me if I had the clutch out and it looked like that I would do it all. Clutch disk, pressure plate with springs and levers and throwout bearing and carrrier. Not a job I want to do twice. Check the release fork for wear from the throwout bearing carrier. If it has a lot you can weld it up and grind it down. Good time to look at the PTO belts. NOW is the time to change them if they look worn or are getting noisy. The adjustment for the clutch is .015" to .020" between disk and flyweel at full pedal depression. That will give you about an inch of pedal release before the clutch starts to engage. You should also have about an inch or so pedal free play when released. be sure the clutch pedal return spring is there so the pedal linkage doesn't ride on the throwout bearing.

Larry B

Larry B
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Re: Clutch question and a bit of a rant

Postby Larry B » Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:04 pm

A little correction. Be sure the clutch pedal return spring is there so the pedal linkage doesn't let the release fork hold the throwout bearing against the pressure plate levers.

LB

Dieselrider
10+ Years
10+ Years
Posts: 176
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 5:17 am
Zip Code: 16656
Tractors Owned: 1977 Cub 184 Lowboy
1979 John Deere 2640
2013 Kubota L3800 TLB
1949 International Cub
Location: West Central PA

Re: Clutch question and a bit of a rant

Postby Dieselrider » Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:21 am

Thanks Larry. The spring is there to keep the clutch pedal returned. I welded up the fingers on the existing pressure plate and re attached the clutch plate to the splined hub and reassembled what I have here to check clearance out. Even with the fingers welded up, there is almost no clearance at the bottom of the stroke. As soon as you let up about 1/16- 1/4 inch on the pedal you have engagement of the clutch. I have a new pressure plate and clutch on order. I don't know what else to try other than replace everything. The tractor runs fine just no free lay at the bottom end of the clutch pedal.

Larry B
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Re: Clutch question and a bit of a rant

Postby Larry B » Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:07 am

If it was me I would replace the throwout bearing as well. When it fails it will grind the ends off the release levers and you will have to pull the clutch again. 50 bucks now is better than pulling the clutch again later. There is a grease fitting on the side of the throwout bearing carrier. It does not grease the actual bearing, it greases the shaft the carrier slides on. You can't lube the throwout bearing and from the looks of your pressure plate it has been in thee a long time.

Larry B

Dieselrider
10+ Years
10+ Years
Posts: 176
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 5:17 am
Zip Code: 16656
Tractors Owned: 1977 Cub 184 Lowboy
1979 John Deere 2640
2013 Kubota L3800 TLB
1949 International Cub
Location: West Central PA

Re: Clutch question and a bit of a rant

Postby Dieselrider » Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:49 am

Larry B wrote:If it was me I would replace the throwout bearing as well. When it fails it will grind the ends off the release levers and you will have to pull the clutch again. 50 bucks now is better than pulling the clutch again later. There is a grease fitting on the side of the throwout bearing carrier. It does not grease the actual bearing, it greases the shaft the carrier slides on. You can't lube the throwout bearing and from the looks of your pressure plate it has been in thee a long time.

Larry B

Still considering that. I did replace the throw out bearing when I replaced the clutch last time. Might look at getting the throw out and carrier all in one this time. Really does not look like much wear in the carrier but..... And the throw out bearing spins real free but.....

I have built up the yoke surfaces with weld before and they seem to be good but, there is another thing I am considering changing out. I have run this thing the way it is for years. However, I have never liked the way the clutch works.

I notice some yellow paint on a few pieces. One that comes to mind is the guard under the flywheel. When I took that off, there is definitely yellow on the top side of it. Is it possible that someone married two tractors together at some point and used some of two different models? Or could this have come from IH this way? I don't know the nuances of the different models to know if some part from a 185 or 154 had been used in the drive train that could cause this issue. I do know the clutch set up is way different but I don't know if any parts could be interchanged.

outdoors4evr
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Re: Clutch question and a bit of a rant

Postby outdoors4evr » Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:24 am

I have experienced this issue several times. Search my old posts for my year long saga.
In the end, there isn't a quality issue with the rivets or the clutch disc. What eats these rivets is when the clutch disc spins out of round due to the driveshaft not being fully seated in the pilot bearing. You can tell if it isn't fully seated if you can't clip on the snap ring in the back of the driveshaft by the U-Joint. There should be about 1/4" of space between the u-joint carrier and the transmission case and there should be about 1/4" of space between the u-joint carrier and the snap ring.

If the driveshaft works its way backward (for whatever reason) and then the tip slips out of the pilot bearing and then the driveshaft looks like it is wobbling while running. This action eats rivets.
184 w/ Creeper & 3-Point
IH 3160a Mower
IH Model 15 Tiller

outdoors4evr
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Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:44 pm
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Re: Clutch question and a bit of a rant

Postby outdoors4evr » Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:26 am

Note: my clutch felt exactly the same as yours does when the driveshaft was not seated.
184 w/ Creeper & 3-Point
IH 3160a Mower
IH Model 15 Tiller

Mortgaged
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Re: Clutch question and a bit of a rant

Postby Mortgaged » Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:30 pm

My "Red" 1977 184 has lots of yellow parts underneath that red paint so I wouldn't worry too much about seeing yellow. I think they basically repainted the existing previously yellow parts from the older series to the new red color and called it good.

outdoors4evr
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Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:44 pm
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Re: Clutch question and a bit of a rant

Postby outdoors4evr » Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:57 am

Your gas tank is probably yellow too (underneath the fiberglass shrowd)

Is that a yellow-bellied tractor? :lol:
184 w/ Creeper & 3-Point
IH 3160a Mower
IH Model 15 Tiller

Dieselrider
10+ Years
10+ Years
Posts: 176
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 5:17 am
Zip Code: 16656
Tractors Owned: 1977 Cub 184 Lowboy
1979 John Deere 2640
2013 Kubota L3800 TLB
1949 International Cub
Location: West Central PA

Re: Clutch question and a bit of a rant

Postby Dieselrider » Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:32 pm

outdoors4evr wrote:I have experienced this issue several times. Search my old posts for my year long saga.
In the end, there isn't a quality issue with the rivets or the clutch disc. What eats these rivets is when the clutch disc spins out of round due to the driveshaft not being fully seated in the pilot bearing. You can tell if it isn't fully seated if you can't clip on the snap ring in the back of the driveshaft by the U-Joint. There should be about 1/4" of space between the u-joint carrier and the transmission case and there should be about 1/4" of space between the u-joint carrier and the snap ring.

If the driveshaft works its way backward (for whatever reason) and then the tip slips out of the pilot bearing and then the driveshaft looks like it is wobbling while running. This action eats rivets.

Okay, my drive shaft is in place and the snap ring does go into the groove. But the snap ring is right close against the universal joint in the back. I thought this would keep the shaft from moving to the rear. Are you saying that there should be some space between the snap ring and the front of the universal joint?

Also I would note that my snap ring was indeed in the groove when I disassembled the shaft upon removal. I don't think it should have been wobbling but, I will check this out further. Thanks.

outdoors4evr
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Posts: 1332
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:44 pm
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Re: Clutch question and a bit of a rant

Postby outdoors4evr » Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:13 am

The snap ring should end up about 1/4" or so in front of the u-joint carrier. If the snap ring is right up against the u-joint carrier, then it is very likely that the front of the driveshaft is probably not fully seated in the pilot bearing. The clutch also behaves very "catchy" and it grabs as soon as you move the pedal. This is because the clutch is moving in an oval pattern rather than a perfect circle. The oval pattern wears the splines and breaks the rivets.
184 w/ Creeper & 3-Point
IH 3160a Mower
IH Model 15 Tiller


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