154 New Start/Gen spins slow

IH CUB Lo-Boy Series - 154, 184, 185 Forum -- Questions and answers to all of your Lo-Boy related issues.

Moderator: Team Cub

Forum rules
Notice: For sale and wanted posts are not allowed in this forum. Please use our free classifieds or one of our site sponsors for your tractor and parts needs.
geoffdash
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:17 pm
Zip Code: 08327

154 New Start/Gen spins slow

Postby geoffdash » Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:55 pm

Hey, all.

I put on a new start/Gen on my 154. I replaced the old one for the same reason.
(Old s/g bench tested fine...who knew)

The starter will make one or two revs then hits a tight spot. It zaps the battery quickly. Does it while being jumped from my truck too. It just can't get the revs up to start. I know these are slow starters but this is almost acting like it's on a dead battery. Even being jumped.

The whole electrical system is new.(2 years)
New selenoid
Electronic ign.
New clutch and clutch brake (well adjusted)
All voltage where it's supposed to be.
Adjusted belt from tight until slipping
S/G spins fine without belt.
Battery is always at 12v+.

Since electric is fine and no binding with trans (disconnected axle) I took out the plugs. Spins like crazy. All valves appear to be moving. (lots of carbon) Oiled the cylinders anyway. I put it back together and it's doing the same thing. Almost acts like a vapor lock. (carb torn down and cleaned twice) But sometimes will spin and fire right up. When it runs, it runs strong. I figured if it was a mechanical issue, the motor would run rough or vibrate. Sludge? Bent piston rod? Gremlin? Family of gremlins?

Any crazy ideas are welcome. I know this tractor back to front at this point and can not get my head around this.

Thanks,
Geoff

User avatar
gitractorman
10+ Years
10+ Years
Posts: 2591
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:35 am
Zip Code: 14072
eBay ID: toysforjake
Tractors Owned: Lots of Cub Cadets!
1951 Farmall Cub
1977 IH Cub
1966 IH Cub
1965 IH Lo Boy
1964 IH Lo Boy
1949 Farmall Cub
Several IH 154 Lo Boys
1979 IH 184 Lo Boy
Simplicity 4416 Sovereign
Simplicity Conquest
Simplicity Legacy 4x4 Diesel
Mitsubishi MT180D 4x4 Diesel
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: Grand Island, NY

Re: 154 New Start/Gen spins slow

Postby gitractorman » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:36 am

Are you trying to start it while depressing the clutch pedal? If so, try it with the trans in neutral and not pushing the clutch.
Cub Cadets 682, 1811, 1864, Simplicity Legacy XL 4x4 Diesel with FEL, 60" mower, 50" Tiller

Eugene
Team Cub Mentor
Team Cub Mentor
Posts: 16874
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:52 pm
Zip Code: 65051
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: Mo. Linn

Re: 154 New Start/Gen spins slow

Postby Eugene » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:45 am

Have battery tested at auto parts store or conduct a voltage drop test.

Move the battery ground cable from sheet metal to transmission/differential case.

Clean up all battery cable connection points. Check battery cables for internal corrosion.
I have an excuse. CRS.

User avatar
Dale Finch
5+ Years
5+ Years
Posts: 3023
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:34 am
Zip Code: 27517
Tractors Owned: '55 Cub "Bertha"
'55 Cub "Ben"
'56 Cub "Boris"
'48 Super A "Bubba"
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: NC, Chapel Hill

Re: 154 New Start/Gen spins slow

Postby Dale Finch » Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:13 am

Eugene wrote:Clean up all battery cable connection points. Check battery cables for internal corrosion.

One easy way to check for bad cables/connections is to touch everything after start attempts (starter switch pushed in)...heat = resistence = power loss = hard start.

geoffdash
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:17 pm
Zip Code: 08327

Re: 154 New Start/Gen spins slow

Postby geoffdash » Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:21 pm

Thanks, everyone.

I have bypassed the clutch switch and even disconnected the drive axle to eliminate that as a possibility.
All cables new, battery terminals clean. Cables are larger than oem. No restriction.
The ground/negative battery cable is on the transmission case. Took a wire wheel and it's bare metal to bare metal.
New selenoid is against bare metal as well.

The only two things that get hot are the positive cable off the battery and the s/g itself.

It's as if the engine is binding in some way. Again, it seems mechanical but maybe I'm losing enough amperage/voltage to something else I'm missing entirely. And it's enough to zap the power when there's compression.

Then again, as if it's a vapor lock situation, it will all of a sudden clear up and spin.

User avatar
64/67lo-boy
5+ Years
5+ Years
Posts: 380
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 2:46 pm
Zip Code: 23453
Tractors Owned: .
48 cub
67 loboy
52 super c
74 cub 154
50 c
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: Virginia Beach

Re: 154 New Start/Gen spins slow

Postby 64/67lo-boy » Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:55 pm

Make sure your hydrolics are not ingaged. if the lever is in the lift or lower position the hydrolics will put a load on the engine as you try to start it.
Pete from Virginia Beach


man comes into the world cold naked wet and starving, and after that things get worse. "Gun Smoke"

Larry B
Cub Star
Cub Star
Posts: 157
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:16 pm
Zip Code: 45325
Tractors Owned: IH 184
Location: Farmersville ohio

Re: 154 New Start/Gen spins slow

Postby Larry B » Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:38 pm

Simple way to check the high current part of the electrical system. Connect a voltmeter between the terminal on the S/G and the battery positive terminal. Not the battery clamp. Turn the starter on and read the meter. Anything over a half volt indicates a problem in the connections between battery terminal and starter terminal. Under half a volt and there is no problem with the positive connection. Do the same test with the voltmeter connected between the S/G frame and the battery negative terminal. Again, not the cable clamp but the actual battery terminal. Anything over .4 volts is a problem. If the voltage readings are good you have no problem with the electrical system as long as you have a good battery.

geoffdash
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:17 pm
Zip Code: 08327

Re: 154 New Start/Gen spins slow

Postby geoffdash » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:48 am

64/67lo-boy wrote:Make sure your hydrolics are not ingaged. if the lever is in the lift or lower position the hydrolics will put a load on the engine as you try to start it.



Thanks. I did that check as well.

geoffdash
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:17 pm
Zip Code: 08327

Re: 154 New Start/Gen spins slow

Postby geoffdash » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:56 am

Larry B wrote:Simple way to check the high current part of the electrical system. Connect a voltmeter between the terminal on the S/G and the battery positive terminal. Not the battery clamp. Turn the starter on and read the meter. Anything over a half volt indicates a problem in the connections between battery terminal and starter terminal. Under half a volt and there is no problem with the positive connection. Do the same test with the voltmeter connected between the S/G frame and the battery negative terminal. Again, not the cable clamp but the actual battery terminal. Anything over .4 volts is a problem. If the voltage readings are good you have no problem with the electrical system as long as you have a good battery.



Thank you. I'll do that test today. Even thugh it seems mechanical in nature, something in my brain is telling me I'm missing something in the electrical. I'm guessing there's enough of a voltage drop in the system that it appears to struggle against the engine.

When I rebuilt the electrical system, the factory 8 pin connector was shot. (tractor was in a building that caught fire years ago, melted most of the plastic) I rewired the whole thing using a marine bus bar system (I'm a boat guy) and heavy gauge thhn wires with heat shrink terminals. Pretty much all 12ga wire too. So there shouldn't be any restriction on electrons. I'll go through and test each circuit individually.

Eugene
Team Cub Mentor
Team Cub Mentor
Posts: 16874
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:52 pm
Zip Code: 65051
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: Mo. Linn

Re: 154 New Start/Gen spins slow

Postby Eugene » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:13 am

geoffdash wrote:The starter will make one or two revs then hits a tight spot. It zaps the battery quickly.

no binding with trans (disconnected axle) I took out the plugs. Spins like crazy.
Still thinking you have a significant loss of amps, some place.

If the problem was mechanical, it would still be there with the spark plugs removed.

Another thought, check the ignition timing with a timing light.
I have an excuse. CRS.

Mike H
Cub Star!
Cub Star!
Posts: 232
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:36 pm
Zip Code: 49945
Tractors Owned: IH 185
Farmall M
1972 SS12 retro fitted
1977 F150 pull truck
1978 F250 4x4 bush truck

Re: 154 New Start/Gen spins slow

Postby Mike H » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:12 pm

to expand on Eugene's ground advise

I had the same problem with my 185.
used a bonding strap from the S/G to the block and fixed the issue.
works great down to 15 degrees then it needs more wampum.

Mike

geoffdash
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:17 pm
Zip Code: 08327

Re: 154 New Start/Gen spins slow

Postby geoffdash » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:27 am

Larry B wrote:Simple way to check the high current part of the electrical system. Connect a voltmeter between the terminal on the S/G and the battery positive terminal. Not the battery clamp. Turn the starter on and read the meter. Anything over a half volt indicates a problem in the connections between battery terminal and starter terminal. Under half a volt and there is no problem with the positive connection. Do the same test with the voltmeter connected between the S/G frame and the battery negative terminal. Again, not the cable clamp but the actual battery terminal. Anything over .4 volts is a problem. If the voltage readings are good you have no problem with the electrical system as long as you have a good battery.


I tested it today.

Positive terminal to s/g .39 volts.
Negative to case, .26 volts.

By passed everything. Disconnected regulator and batt cables from s/g. Jumped directly from running truck. Same thing. Spins slowly about one rev then lopes.

Going to look inside. I was so hoping to find an electrical problem.

geoffdash
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:17 pm
Zip Code: 08327

Re: 154 New Start/Gen spins slow

Postby geoffdash » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:29 am

Mike H wrote:to expand on Eugene's ground advise

I had the same problem with my 185.
used a bonding strap from the S/G to the block and fixed the issue.
works great down to 15 degrees then it needs more wampum.

Mike


Thanks. I did that also. Thought maybe old connections weren't making a good ground. Cleaned up all areas that connect and added a strap from block to s/g case.

geoffdash
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:17 pm
Zip Code: 08327

Re: 154 New Start/Gen spins slow

Postby geoffdash » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:41 am

I ended up taking out the plugs again. Took off side plate to check the valves. I spun the engine and all went fine. All valves moving and well lubricated. Checked oil filter housing and oil pumps strong.

What I did find in the side of the motor is some very fine flakes of metal. About the size of a fingernail. As I poked around I found that they came from the top of the valve area, close to where the valves penetrate up to the combustion chamber. They were flaking from the block. Still, they were more delicate than a potato chip and alone wouldn't have the integrity to jamb up the valves or cam. But I thought if it was happening for a while it may have caused issues..

I decided to dump the oil. I flushed out the pan and then ran a telescoping magnetic probe into the oil drain. It came out with what I'd expect, a little bit of metal "dust" or grit. I checked the oil filter and it's fine. Nothing in the filter and nothing major in the filter housing. Just some mild sludge.

Going to put it all back together and give it another shot.

At this point nothing makes sense.

Eugene
Team Cub Mentor
Team Cub Mentor
Posts: 16874
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:52 pm
Zip Code: 65051
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: Mo. Linn

Re: 154 New Start/Gen spins slow

Postby Eugene » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:23 pm

Check the ignition timing. If ignition is firing a cylinder before the piston reaches TDC on compression stroke, hard to impossible to start the engine.

Did the engine start without a problem after you installed the electronic ignition?
I have an excuse. CRS.


  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “Lo-Boy Series - 154, 184, 185”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest