Interesting

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Interesting

Postby WKPoor » Fri Apr 08, 2005 9:44 pm

My favorite topic. Here is a quote from the EPA.GOV website.

Beginning in 1989, EPA required gasoline to meet volatility standards to decrease evaporative emissions of gasoline in the summer months when ozone levels are typically at their highest. In the early 1990s, EPA began monitoring the winter oxygenated fuels program implemented by the states to help control emissions of carbon monoxide during the winter months, and established the reformulated gasoline (RFG) program to reduce emissions of smog-forming and toxic pollutants.



All you want to know about todays gasolines are on this website. They continually stress that performance is not degraded yet everywhere they tell of reduced volatility to meet emissions standards. Now tell me that todays gas is as good as it used to be. When these old tractors were designed and set up fuels were indeed different. Todays RFG is different and I'm not sure it performs better as they say.
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Postby WKPoor » Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:56 pm

Something I forgot to mention that sparked my interest was that gas is formulated different for different areas of the country. That might explain why some people have more trouble than others with the fouling issue.
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Postby Jim Becker » Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:29 am

You aren't that far from Fremont. Why don't you run up there and get a can of gas to see if it fixes your problem.
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Postby WKPoor » Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:20 am

I thought about that Jim. We are close. And there are those close to me I'm sure that aren't having any trouble.
A guy I work with ( also longtime mechanic) has a late model Dodge pickup with 360. He said last couple of months its been pinging something terrible even with premium gas. He normally runs midgrade. He went to the dealer and they said his computer needed several software upgrades. They also mentioned that they have noticed the fuel we buy seems to be getting worse and drivabilty problems are getting more numerous. :? He didn't know at time of the writing if problem is corrected with the upgrades. I guess I'm going to uproach this from another way. Most here seem to think auto fuel is just fine and poses no real problems. Even in the light of reformulations and all,yet Avags is the same as its always been. They haven't messed with that fuel. So why hasn't the EPA mandated Avgas be reformulated if its so good.?
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Postby Jim Becker » Sat Apr 09, 2005 10:19 am

WKPoor wrote:So why hasn't the EPA mandated Avgas be reformulated if its so good.?


Isn't that where "low lead" avgas came from?

By the way, isn't one of the major differences between avgas and automotive gas that avgas has lower valatility to reduce vapor lock risk at high altitudes (low air pressure)? If the problem with modern automotive gas is lower volatility than the old stuff, doesn't that make the newer gas MORE like avgas? And if lower volatility is the problem with automotive gas, won't changing to avgas make matters even worse?
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Postby Lurker Carl » Sat Apr 09, 2005 4:40 pm

How fast or slow gasoline evaporates in your driveway is irrevelent to how it vaporizes and combusts in your engine under heat and pressure. As long as the vapor point of gasoline is lower than the temperature and pressure of the combustion chamber, it will explode when the spark plug fires. Provided the engine is operating as the manufacturer designed it.

EPA mandated reduced volatility of gasoline at atmospheric pressure during warm weather months. As you add heat, liquid gasoline becomes gaseous much faster and overloads the evaporative emissions system in your automobile fuel system - basically a charcoal canister - and adds to the ozone formation problems plaging most large metro areas during the summer. The gasoline is also formulated to be more volatile during winter months so your vehicle will start during very cold temperatures. You don't want the same gasoline formulation in Phoenix, AZ in August and Bismark, ND in February.

Oxygenated fuel is a different animal, oxygenates are chemicals added to gasoline to provide more oxygen in the combustion process. This is suppose to decrease carbon monoxide emissions from the vehicle's engine, particularly in cold temperatures and during the warm up period. Oxygenates, usually ethanol, lower the BTU rating of gasoline by 5-10%. Lower BTU's = less power and higher fuel comsumption for the same amount of work. It still vaporizes and explodes under heat and pressure in the combustion chamber.

Spray a light mist of water into a hot oven and the water will vaporize, whether the temperature is 350 degrees or 500 degrees. Gasoline mist in the combustion chamber under pressure and heat vaporizes as well, regardless of the volatility at atmospheric pressure at ambient temperatures.
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Postby WKPoor » Sat Apr 09, 2005 10:41 pm

Jim- Avgas is much more volatile than pump gas. Thats why is burns more complete. As for lead content LL means less compared to pre LL. There is still more lead in it than pump gas ever had. I'm guessing at this now but they lowered the lead content to reduce lead fouling. 100LL has been around for a while. I started flying in 83 and and it was the standard then. I'll admit most engines don't benifit from 100octane but everything I've run it in so far seems operate very well. Starts cold or hot are easy, excells are smooth and without black smoke belering out. The H shows absulotely no sign of black smoke under any load.

Luker- I do think there is at a parallel between volatility and how fast it evaporates on my driveway. Sure that is not a quantitative statement of performance, it just shows how much more readily Avgas will burn. Volatility effects how fast fuel burns which determines the timing reqiurements.

I know I must seem like a real kook about this topic. I just know that I spent several months trying to figure out what the problem was with the H and I didn't want to believe fuel could be it. Until one day a very good Aircraft mechanic friend of mine suggested the problem might be fuel. Then after seeing the results I became a believer.
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Postby Lurker Carl » Sat Apr 09, 2005 10:58 pm

WKPoor wrote:Luker- I do think there is at a parallel between volatility and how fast it evaporates on my driveway. Sure that is not a quantitative statement of performance, it just shows how much more readily Avgas will burn. Volatility effects how fast fuel burns which determines the timing reqiurements.


That would be true if the engine has no compression and operates at the temperature of your driveway.
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Postby George Willer » Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:52 am

Lurker Carl wrote:
WKPoor wrote:Luker- I do think there is at a parallel between volatility and how fast it evaporates on my driveway. Sure that is not a quantitative statement of performance, it just shows how much more readily Avgas will burn. Volatility effects how fast fuel burns which determines the timing reqiurements.


That would be true if the engine has no compression and operates at the temperature of your driveway.


I learned when I first learned to fly in 1965 that aviation fuel has a LOWER vapor pressure, meaning that it evaporates more slowly. That's because of the requirement to work at lower atmospheric pressure at altitude. It's the job of the carburetor to vaporize the fuel, which it does very well.

I also learned that the reason for octane rating was to compare the speed of the flame front at compression pressure. The higher the rating, the SLOWER the flame front therefore preventing detonation.

"Aircraft mechanic friend of mine suggested the problem might be fuel" A lot of your friends here have tried to help with your true problem... even avoiding the word "might" at times. Let's consider the ways your H is not stock which would affect how it runs before we blame the pump fuel. Some folks reading this may otherwise get the wrong idea.

I give up!Image
Last edited by George Willer on Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby WKPoor » Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:10 am

Luker- This fuel subject just tickles me pink! Can't wait for Cubfest. I am keeping a very open mind on the subject. In fact until recently this year I never really thought fuel quality could be a factor in the kinds of equipment I operate. I've had many conversations with co-workers ( all of them 20-30 yrs as A&P mechanics and my Dad who is 45yr retiree engineer for GM) and they all have told me just what I've passed on here. So the technical debate will rage. Something else I find funny is how I seem like a vigilanty to the forum always going against the manual specs and what the manufacture intended, and yet I work in an industry where doing by the book is paramont. I sign my name every in the log book of 30million dollar aircarft stating I did the work per the maintenance manual. On the other hand that very m/m gets rewrittin everyday by the manufacture as they continually descover errors (many descovered by mechs) or jusr plain update the product for the times. That is something I've thought about. These old tractors have no factory support. If they did there might be many changes made for many reasons. There are at least 3-5 bulletins put out everyday on just CRJ alone for changes. Sometimes the manufacture finds were a part was either made wrong or installed wrong on the whole fleet yrs later. I see it everyday and its effects my thinking. Basically what I'm saying in a nutshell is: If the manufacture of a jumbo jet can incorrectly make or install or give incorrect instructions on how to accomplish a task what makes you think IH was right on everything having to do with there products? Thats where I'm coming from.
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Postby Donny M » Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:20 am

Bill,

Are you suggesting the complexity of a Jet Aircraft is the same as a simple tractor?

I don't mean to FUEL the fire but both of my Cubs (stock) run just fine on pump gas as well as my 2 highly modified dirt bikes. My stock dirt bikes also run just fine.

Just my opinion, If the fuel/air mixture ratio is correct the tractor will run just fine and you're throwing your money away using avgas. 8)
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Postby WKPoor » Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:59 pm

Now Donney this is starting to go in another direction. I'm actually in your guys court on this. And I fully beleive that 99% of the engines out there will,do,and can run just fine on the cheepest fuel. This all started will my H that to this day won't run on anything but Avgas or racing gas. Thats when I, me got an eye opener that there really is a difference in fuels. not that everone needs the stuff, just that there is a diff. heck if my H ran OK on pump gas I wouldn't had to there in the first place. I didn't want to beleive that it could be fuel problem for a long time. I'm just saying that with my own experience I now know that fuel can make a diff in the right circumstance. Its like a revelation I didn't know existed till now. Now if someone can show me how to make the H run on pump gas I'll gladly do it, but I've had some mighty sharp people working on it an no ones come up with answer yet.
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Postby George Willer » Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:19 pm

Now if someone can show me how to make the H run on pump gas I'll gladly do it, but I've had some mighty sharp people working on it an no ones come up with answer yet.


Bill,

I don't know how many ways to say it but the answer has been right here all along from us not so sharp people. Listen carefully... return the H to original specs, tune it correctly, and forget about all the experimenting and it will run just as well as mine and Bigdog's do on pump gas. It shouldn't (and doesn't) require a rocket scientist! :P

FWIW, My H has been idle for a long time, only starting occasionally. The pump gas that's in it has been there for at least 3 years without any additive. It starts easily, runs cleanly, and sounds great. Yours could too.
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Postby Carm » Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:38 am

I know that even a properly tuned engine will run better on Avgas, because of the higer quality of the fuel. That being said, an engine that is not in the best of shape will run on pump gas...even old smelly gas (We have a few that do), and run better on avgas. But I agree with the consensus that a properly set up emgine should run well on pump gas, even if its old. I actually put about a gallon of diesel fuel in a tank before i realised what it was. I just topped off with gas and it ran fine with no real suffering of performance. I am still trying to con some 80 avgas from a friend to compare with 100LL and regular and premium pump gas just for comparison in the Cub.
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Postby WKPoor » Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:48 am

George, That is excellent advise, but what fun would that be, I love to tinker and with time this will all come together. Besides right now it actually is running superb and since my job allows me the luxury of obtaining the fuel I need I feel compelled to continue this quest. It will be a great learning experience. I know I'm not the only one in this postion. I'm just a guy who is righting down my thoughts on this great forum that has some of the best minds for these old machines. But there are many (several around the Circleville area) that echo my thoughts. And yes, most have non-stock equipment also. That old man that helped me build my H sat on them when they where new and has worked on more of them than I've even ever seen. He told me when I took it home that it probably would need the good stuf. I now see he was right.
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