Help with Electric Motor Please

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Re: Help with Electric Motor Please

Postby Eugene » Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:15 pm

Wire, center of picture, appears to have been over heated - it's black. Just above the wire appears to be a blackened terminal.

The problem could very well be on the other side of the redish mounting plate/relay board.
I have an excuse. CRS.
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Re: Help with Electric Motor Please

Postby Marion(57 Loboy) » Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:32 pm

This is a better view perhaps.
What you saw in the other pic was really a duct tape flag, and the blackened terminal was just some goop that flew outta the cap when it blew and stuck there.
Nothing on either side of the board looks like it's gotten hot or boogered up...well...until this side got stained with goop that was supposed to stay inside the cap!
I did some web searching, and I think that perhaps the centrifugal switch may be sticking and keeping the start winding/cap circuit closed?

Image
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Re: Help with Electric Motor Please

Postby Rudi » Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:36 pm

Marion:

Like I said before, I ain't no lectric whiz ... but I would be cleaning up the goop and the other stray material on that board.

That saw should make lots of sawdust :D
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Re: Help with Electric Motor Please

Postby Landreo » Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:10 am

I have not have time to look closely and try to determine if the jumper configuration makes sense but I will try to spend some time tonight with the photos. From your diagram of the jumpers and the photo there is a difference where the resistor wiring is located. Are you sure it is correct according to the diagram inside the saw?

The saw apparently worked, changed to 220 volts and then right away blew the first capacitor. Am I right? If so, then it may have been jumpered incorrectly or the cord wired incorrectly. Did you noticed how it was jumpered when you got the saw? The 110 volt capacitor is correct, even with wiring for 220. On 110 the capacitor gets 110 volts and all is well. Wired for 220, the starter windings connect to only one leg and the middle of joined running windings. The running windings connected in series get the full 220 volts but act as a voltage divider at the 1/2 way point where the two running, or more likely 4 actual coils, connect. There is 110 volts at that point. The running windings get either 220 or 110 but the starter windings always get 110. No need for a 220 volt capacitor.
There should be no centrifugal switch, that is what the relay is for. Does the relay appear to have large windings? I believe it should and is a current sensing relay that would be connected in series, the coil itself, with the line and the running winding. If that is true then the relay should be normally open. Small windings is a voltage relay and would be normally closed.

If you are curious as I am, remove the capacitor, cover the wires leaving them unconnected to anything, plug it in and turn on the switch. It will not start but then give the shaft a spin and it should start and run well. If it does the the running part is good. Let it stop, do the same thing but look for movement of the relay as the motor reaches ful speed. Should release and open.

Unplug, connect an ohmeter to the wires that would normally go to the capacitor. Should read infinity since the relay should be open. I expect it will not read infinity but instead a few ohms. Push on the relay points to close and should read a few, 3-5 ohms. That is the resistance of the points and start windings.
Switch the meter to AC volts, plug in the saw and pull the switch, should be 110 volts or more roughly. Spin the shaft, once it reaches full speed the volts should drop to zero as the relay opens.If not the the relay is bad or wired/jumpered incorrectly.

Looking at the photo of the jumpers, top left is a screw for a jumper but nothing coming from the other side, that hole for a screw from the back is empty. I expect that is a Null connector that is just there to hold a jumper that was not needed for 220 volts so it does not get lost but it may be there was a wire from the back that came loose and the screw fell out. May be worth taking off that phenolic plate and looking.

I believe the problem is a stuck relay or it is misjumpered. Without holding the motor in my hands and checking the wiring it is still just a guess.
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Re: Help with Electric Motor Please

Postby Marion(57 Loboy) » Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:00 pm

UPDATE:
I did exactly as written, and the relay closes; the motor spins up to speed; the relay opens; and it just purrs like a kitten.
When I shut it down, it coasted for 2 minutes and 32 seconds!...I can only imagine how long it will coast with the added flywheel weight of the other half of the stabilizing hub; nut and a 12" or 14" blade :shock:
What next?
Lambreo, pm me your email so I can send you a short video clip with sound of the start-up please.
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Re: Help with Electric Motor Please

Postby Rudi » Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:21 pm

Marion:

Glad you are making headway. Please post the vid here as well ok. You might be surprised at how much your little project here is applicable to others. I know I am learning a lot with this thread :D

Marion(57 Loboy) wrote:UPDATE:
I did exactly as written, and the relay closes; the motor spins up to speed; the relay opens; and it just purrs like a kitten.
When I shut it down, it coasted for 2 minutes and 32 seconds!...I can only imagine how long it will coast with the added flywheel weight of the other half of the stabilizing hub; nut and a 12" or 14" blade :shock:


That is one of the reasons why manual brakes were added to many of the better quality radials in the late 60's to late 70's. I think in the 80's the first electronic brake systems were introduced on the higher end saws and the middle/lower end saws in the early 90's. Course this is just from my kinda rusty old memory.
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Re: Help with Electric Motor Please

Postby Marion(57 Loboy) » Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:04 pm

Here is a pic of the inside of the handle where the diagram is.

Image

Here is a pic showing the back of the wiring plate:

Image

Here is a side view of the plate showing the relay is OPEN (power off), and that the coil is wrapped concealing the wire to check for gage.

Image

Rudi,
I'd love to post the video...if'n I knew how ! HAHAHA It just keeps gettin better huh!
Gimmee the procedure please.
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Re: Help with Electric Motor Please

Postby Rudi » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:18 pm

Here is Marion's video



Motor sounds really good and smooth. Especially since it is a mid 50's Radial .. wow
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Re: Help with Electric Motor Please

Postby Landreo » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:53 am

OK, good news.
I believe I know the problem but first, did you do the voltage measurements with the motor running? Did the votage drop to zero as the relay opened?
When the motor started running, by itself or only after you spun the shaft?
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Re: Help with Electric Motor Please

Postby Marion(57 Loboy) » Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:27 am

Thank you Rudi :{_}:

This video was taken on my Canon PowerShot S50...It's OLD!

The sound reproduction far exeeds the video quality!

The LOW rumble noise you hear in the video is b/c the saw is sitting on my wooden workbench, which is topped with 1/2 plywood.

Add to that the fact that the camera is sitting on a stack of two mostly empty gallon paint cans, and you've got a real wierd sound board there!

The motor bearings do make a bit of noise, but there is absolutely no play laterally or radially. They sound 'dry' to me...I may investigate that as well.

I should add that the supply circuit to the garage is 15amp 14 gage wire, which is NOT optimal IMHO. This same outlet barely starts my tablesaw with it's GE 2HP cap start cap run motor on it.

The compressor I have in there will start when you turn it on if it has no PSI in the tank...will run til it shuts off at 120psi...but then blows the breaker trying to start at 95psi.

Last but not least, the guy in this motor video needs to clean his garage out and organize!!!....GEEEESH!!!! :oops:
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Re: Help with Electric Motor Please

Postby Rudi » Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:36 am

Marion:

I like the saw, it sounds great. Most of those bearings are sealed if I remember correctly. Can't lube em need to be replaced. If there is not lateral play at all I probably would not worry about it. I have used my table saw for over 30 years now and never had to change any bearings in the motor .. they do last a rather long time :D

I guess a future upgrade to the shop/garage is 125 Amp sub-panel? I have 125 amps to my shop and we are putting in another 125 amp sub-panel to the pole barn. Well, whenever my electrician has some time in the evening after his day job :roll: Patience is a virtue they say.. but I don't think I have a lot of either :lol:
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Re: Help with Electric Motor Please

Postby Marion(57 Loboy) » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:01 am

Thanks Rudi!
Landreo,

The motor does not start turning with the test applied. It does hummmmm alot tho!. If I give the shaft a good snap and then put power to it it starts up and climbs to speed and opens that relay.
I let it sit there and run a good five minutes...no changes in noise, nothing changed in how it smelled, didnt see any steaming or smoking coming from anywhere.
I will not have access to a voltmeter until this friday to perform the other tests you suggest.
I appreciate you knowledge and patience with this dilemma of mine. I want this saw to run in my shop for the same reason I got and fixed up that old cub loboy instead of going out and buying a cheap yanmar diesel tractor!
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Re: Help with Electric Motor Please

Postby Rudi » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:27 am

Marion:

Stupid question. Did you check the brushes :?:
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Re: Help with Electric Motor Please

Postby Landreo » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:39 am

I watched the video and the relay does appear to work correctly. If there is no short in the relay then it is not the problem. The voltmeter test would tell for sure but if the relay is opening then something is allowing voltage to bypass the relay and go to the capacitor.

Still does not appear to be jumpered correctly. There are 2 sets of jumper busses, left and right. The resistor wire should be on the lower right bus terminal and go to somewhere near the relay. It actually appears to be going from the bottom left bus terminal to the bottom right bus terminal. I cannot tell from the photo if there is a terminal under the relay or should the resistor wire go to the relay mount screw? It may be worth taking off the two relay base screws and seeing what is under there from the front or just looking at the back of the board and see if there is a connector under the relay. Can't tell from the photos. I have no real idea what the resistor is for but it may be a bleed resistor for the capacitor.

Also, from the back, are the wires numbered? If so can you post a photo of the wires and their numbers? One appears to be labeled "5" but I cannot make out the rest.

Easiest way is to just take the motor to a shop and have them look but much more interesting if you do it yourself!
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Re: Help with Electric Motor Please

Postby Marion(57 Loboy) » Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:47 pm

Okay...I have the multitester this weekend!

Voltage at outlet= 119
Voltage at outlet when motor is at full speed, relay open=116

Hooked tester up to leads that would normally be on the cap.
Voltage when motor is running at full speed, relay open=194 ?

What?? :headbang

Is this right?

NEXT:
No power, cord disconnected from source.
Hooked tester up to leads that would normally be on the cap.
Ohms=3.5
Close the relay.
Ohms=3.0-3.1
Relay Open or closed, spin the motor shaft= the ohms go crazy...

Please translate ! lol
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