Rotating Ring Gear

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Re: Rotating Ring Gear

Postby John *.?-!.* cub owner » Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:59 am

Dan, check the wear on the bendix teeth to make sure it is traveling as far into the gear as it should. I worked on a starter on a friends loader that had the spacers wrong and it was barely engaging. changed the spacers on the bendix shaft and all was well.
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Re: Rotating Ring Gear

Postby Bill Hudson » Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:07 am

Dan,

I don't have a Pony and am not familiar with them. However, I'm inclined to believe that if you're going to do #5 and especially #6, numbers 1 and 3 are essential unless the radiator hoses are very long and very flexible. Good luck Dan. My observation is worth what you paid for it. :)

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Re: Rotating Ring Gear

Postby Dan England » Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:51 am

John: I have removed the starter. The bendix teeth show some wear but are still in acceptable condition. The teeth on the ring gear where the starter engages show a lot of wear and I think the problem lies there. However, before I split I will use a large screwdriver to rotate the flywheel and take another look at the teeth. Bill: I will be splitting at the rear engine-torque tube junction. The distance between the front of the engine and the radiator should not be affected, or so it seems to me. But this is my first split and my thinking may not be clear and correct. I am not offended when someone disagrees with me. I appreciate their concern as it may save me from making a mistake. I am puzzled as to why 1 and 3 are included if they are not necessary. Comments from other forum members? Dan
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Re: Rotating Ring Gear

Postby Ike » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:02 am

Dan,

I don't think that the Pony "splits" like a Cub. I believe the engine sets in a frame attached to the torque tube and the engine is moved forward in the frame in order to separate the drive shaft and clutch. You have to remove the grill and radiator to do this. The good part is that you don't have to support two tractor halves. :) It actually should be much easier than a split.

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Re: Rotating Ring Gear

Postby Jim Becker » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:07 am

Dan,
I have never done any of that type work on a Pony either. But from reading those instructions, here is my cut of it. Unlike a Cub, the engine is not a structural member fo the Pony. The engine is supported by frame rails that run forward from the bell housing. Those instructions are for sliding the engine forward on the rails while leaving the structure of the tractor intact and standing on the 4 wheels. You do not actually split the tractor.
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Re: Rotating Ring Gear

Postby Dan England » Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:50 am

Bill, Ike and Jim: I can see where items 1 and 3 are necessary if the engine slides forward to give working room between engine and torque tube. And it may be that it can be done in that manner. However, I have a xerox copy of a second Massey-Harris Pony manual which gives a word description plus a picture of method of removing clutch. While I don't have a copy of the front cover, I believe it to be an official Massey-Harris publication. The last page shows a Massey-Harris symbol, Massey-Harris Company Limited, Established 1847. The following info is found near the bottom of the page "5479 Jan 2-51 Printed in Canada". I won't go through all of the items to be disconnected in preparation for the split but the grille and radiator are not mentioned. Word description includes the following: Hang engine (forward) half of tractor in hoist. Block up rear half of tractor by installing a rolling floor jack under torque tube. Take out bolts and cap screws which attach torque tube to engine and front frame. Separate tractor halves enough to permit removal of clutch from flywheel. A picture shows a Pony separated at junction of engine and torque tube as is common in Cubs. I now think that I need to do more research before attempting a split. I appreciate the input from each of you and hope that additional comments will be provided. There must be forum members who have been involved in removal of the clutch from a Pony and I certainly want to hear from you. It may be that both methods are acceptable for a Pony. If so, I think that I will probably slide the engine forward and not have to split it. Thanks, Dan
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Re: Rotating Ring Gear

Postby Lurker Carl » Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:36 pm

I have worked on larger 20-23 series MH tractors but not a Pony. My experience was those tractors didn't need to be split (the frame rails unbolted from the transmission case) but the engine slid forward and removed in order to do any meaningful repairs on the clutch assembly and flywheel. Even if the radiator and fan assembly removed, the hydraulic tank mounted in front of the radiator was still in the way..
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Re: Rotating Ring Gear

Postby John *.?-!.* cub owner » Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:22 pm

Dan, I did not make myself clear, my intention was for you to look at the wear marks on the teeth, to see how deep the teeth were going into the ring gear. If they are only going in a little way, you need to see why, and solve that.
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Re: Rotating Ring Gear

Postby Dan England » Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:04 pm

I have had time to examine a third service manual for the Pony, this one by Jensales. They aren't in agreement on how to gain access to the clutch and flywheel. Having the benefit of information which you provided allows me to better understand their instructions. The first one (MH-49) recommends sliding the engine forward, the second (MH-51 I think) recommends splitting at the torque tube-engine juncture, while the third (Pony Service by Jensales) explains both approaches. I have taken a new look at the Pony with the two approaches in mind and think that sliding the engine forward will be the easier and safer method. It has a manual lift only so no hydraulic unit to limit forward movement. I hope to get started tomorrow. John: I will be in touch by e-mail tomorrow and will probably send a picture of tooth wear on the Bendix. Again, thanks to each of you who have responded. I continue to be interested in your comments. Dan
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Re: Rotating Ring Gear

Postby Dan England » Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:10 am

The following info is taken from the manual "Massey-Harris Pony Tractor Operating and Servicing Instructions" (1949) by Massey-Harris Co.
TO REMOVE THE CLUTCH
1. Drain the cooling system
2. Remove engine sheet metal
3. Remove radiator grille and radiator
4. Disconnect throttle and choke controls, gasoline and oil pressure lines, and ignition cable from engine
5. Remove engine mounting bolts
6. Move engine ahead sufficiently to clear main drive shaft from clutch
7. Remove screws holding clutch assembly to flywheel

Yesterday I started the process which would lead to removal of ring gear and flywheel. I encountered no problem until I reached item 6 of the list. I moved the engine forward until the front of the oil pan butted against a crossmember of the chasis and that was as far forward as it would go. And that wasn't far enough forward to allow easy removal of clutch and flywheel. So, the oil pan had to go. With all bolts removed and the pan lowered, there was insufficient space between the radius rods (the rear portion of the rods are held in place by the front axle pivot pin) and the bottom of the block to slide the pan out. Well, back to the manuals again to check on procedure for oil pan removal and this is what I found. "Removal of pan is complicated in early production models by the front axle pivot pin and the tractor must be blocked up under forward end of torque tube and pivot pin removed before pan can be lowered". I completed that step and think that I am now ready to remove the clutch, flywheel and ring gear today. For those having early model Ponys, I would add the following:
8. Remove front axle pivot pin allowing radius rods to be lowered. Support front of torque tube before removing pivot pin.
9. Drop oil pan
Completing steps 8 and 9 allow the engine to be moved forward a sufficient distance to gain access to the clutch and flywheel. Perhaps Pony owners will know an easier method of accessing the flywheel. I welcome your comments. Dan
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Re: Rotating Ring Gear

Postby Lurker Carl » Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:32 pm

I'm thinking back to something I had to do with an automotive oil pan at one time. The only way to remove/install the oil pan, without lifting the engine off the motor mounts, was to rotate the crankshaft. That allowed me to thread the pan out as each throw/counterweight rotated up and created the necessary clearance above the frame crossmember. I thought of it as "unscrewing" the oil pan via the crankshaft.

It sounds like similar architecture used with the smaller Pony tractor as with the 20 series I'm familiar with. Completely removing the engine from the tractor was the easiest and quickest way to replace the clutch and pressure plate. While you have it apart, now is a good time to service the universal joints on the torque shaft if the Pony has them.
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Re: Rotating Ring Gear

Postby Dan England » Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:56 pm

I removed the clutch and flywheel today. After cleaning the circumference of the flywheel with carb cleaner, I then applied a very light coat of 3-in-1 oil. I marked the flywheel, front and back, in the two areas of worn ring gear teeth. I was then able to gently tap the ring gear off from the flywheel. Since it came off easily, I decided to see if I could put it back on the flywheel. After rotating the gear, I placed it on the lip of the flywheel and began tapping and was able to seat the gear back in its original position. Finally, I sprayed a liberal amount of carb cleaner on the flywheel-ring gear junction and wiped it good to remove any oil which remained. Now my question. From what I have read, the gear usually must be heated to replace it on the flywheel. Should I anticipate any problems (slippage) as I was able to replace the ring gear without heat? Carl, I was excited to learn that I would not have to split the tractor . However, sliding the engine forward was more involved than I had anticipated. Since the radiator was drained and removed, I was able to correct some problems there. But I don't know which approach I will use if I ever have to do this job again. I guess that I will start putting it back together tomorrow. Dan
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Re: Rotating Ring Gear

Postby cubguy's dad » Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:58 pm

Dan,

Looks like you are making good progress on your Ring gear Job. I would not anticipate any problems with ring gear slippage, as I have also tapped ring gears off and on again.

The fit of flywheel to ring gear is semi-press fit, if you did apply heat the ring gear would literaly fall on (or off) the flywheel and tighten up once it cooled down. Applying heat is faster and easier thats all.

Good Luck

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Re: Rotating Ring Gear

Postby Dan England » Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:03 pm

Thanks, Mark. That is what I wanted to hear. Dan
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Re: Rotating Ring Gear

Postby Dan England » Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:18 am

No oil pan gasket available for the Pony locally. I purchased a sheet of gasket material and will make one today. A question on ring gear wear. As predicted, the gear had worn teeth at two locations which were 180 degrees apart. I understand, when the motor ceases to fire, that each compression stroke acts as a brake to slow, then stop the crank from turning. My jumbled thinking says that there should be four areas of wear on the teeth, one for each of the four compression strokes. Why only two? Thanks, Dan
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