Mystery parts in hydraulic filter base

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Mystery parts in hydraulic filter base

Postby Smiley » Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:45 pm

My wife and I fought for 15 minutes to get the hyd filter off my Lo boy. She pulled on the filter wrench while I hammered at the rim with a cold chisel. After finally getting it off, the photos below shows what was holding it on. At first I thought they were valve retainer clips but aren't tapered or machined on the outside. They were laying where they are shown and appear to be about 2/3 of a ring/spacer/or gizmo, sucked up from the transmission. It appears as it may have been about 3/4' in diameter with the inside machined and outside rough. The edges are so chewed up I can't tell it it broke off something or was some type of spacer. I'm hoping they might be from some past incident that's already been repaired, but also wonder if this might have anything to do with the problem I posted last week, about how the tractor acts like you're stepping on the brakes when you push the clutch down. After changing oil today, I took the tractor out and everything seemed fine other that the clutch/brake thing.
If anyone can identify this part, I'd sure appreciate it.
Thanks,
Smiley
Attachments
002filterjpg.jpg
013jpg.jpg
011jpg.jpg
smiley - upstate NY --- Git r done
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Re: Mystery parts in hydraulic filter base

Postby Landreo » Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:35 am

That is one of the numbered series, 154, 185 tractors and have clutch brakes. That may have been the source of the braking feeling when stepping on the clutch.

I assume that the filter is on the return sideof the pump so what ever that piece is would have had to go through the pump. I don't think it would have fit but it is hard to tell from the photo. May have been dropped into the base while a PO was changing the old filter. It does look like a spacer of some type.

Edit:
Looked at the plumbing dagram and it is on the suction side, strange. So that piece may be out of the transmission.
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Re: Mystery parts in hydraulic filter base

Postby Matt Kirsch » Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:05 pm

When I responded to the clutch/brake issue post, I was under the impression that it was an offset LoBoy.

Numbered LoBoy is a mostly different animal... There's an entire separate forum on this site for them.

The 154 and 185 LoBoys have combined clutch/brake pedals like Cub Cadets, IIRC. You step on the clutch halfway, it releases the clutch. Shove it to the floor and it applies the brakes.

As for those chunks in the filter base, the only way they could've gotten there is if they were there when the filter was installed!

The center hole is the only place they'd be able to fit. If they came in through there, they'd still be there, or jammed in the center of the filter.
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Re: Mystery parts in hydraulic filter base

Postby Landreo » Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:48 pm

[quote="Matt Kirsch"]The 154 and 185 LoBoys have combined clutch/brake pedals like Cub Cadets, IIRC. You step on the clutch halfway, it releases the clutch. Shove it to the floor and it applies the brakes.
quote]

The numbered series have the same brakes as the off set cubs. Brake pedal(s) on the right, clutch on the left. The clutch does have a clutch brake different purpose than the main wheel brakes. Pushing on the clutch pedal does not apply the main brakes just the clutch brake to make for a grindless shift. I used to drive an old IHC Emeryville road tractor that had a clutch brake. Used to be common in big truck, amybe still is.
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Re: Mystery parts in hydraulic filter base

Postby Smiley » Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm

Boy, you learn something every day. I've been a member here for several years and just learned from Matt, there's a separate forum for the Lo boys, oh well. I wonder if I should move this question over there?
I moved a few pallets of stuff around with it today and it still acts like I'm stepping on the main brake when pushing clutch down, but goes fine when clutch is let up. I greased the clutch/brake shaft again today to be sure it wasn't dragging the brake on while clutching. Maybe next week I'll be able to get into it deeper.
As far as the parts in the oil filter, I'm most sure they were sucked up from the transmission as the suction line from tranny to filter is definitely large enough to let them pass. The oil enters on the outside of the filter, is sucked through into the center hole that exits through a much smaller line to the pump. I'll have to look at some trans parts diagrams to see if I can see anything like it.
smiley - upstate NY --- Git r done
Learned fixin and tinkerin from my Father and scavenging from my buddies grandfather, who could go to the dump with a half load and come back with a full one
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Have had several other antique tractors including a Fordson with Trackson conversion.

Re: Mystery parts in hydraulic filter base

Postby Gary Dotson » Sat Apr 16, 2011 6:39 am

The manual will give you the clearances and such for adjusting the clutch brake, so you should look that up. If you pull the cover off you'll be able to tell if it's applying too heavily. It needs to apply enough to stop a spinning flywheel but not enough to significantly slow the tractor. check it out, I think you'll find your problem there.
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Re: Mystery parts in hydraulic filter base

Postby b52c130 » Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:10 am

Smiley,
I would start by taking a very clean bucket and draining the transmission oil into the bucket and fishing around in the bottom of the bucket with a magnet. You might also want to unscrew the suction tube from the bottom of the transmission case to check for 'foreign objects' in that area also. You also might want to do a 'post mortum' on the hydraulic filter (tear the sheet metal cover off the filter and see what is trapped between the thin cover and the filter media).

My guess is that you are going to find foreign metal pieces somewhere in that process. If you do find foreign metal, it means that something (bearing) is disintegrating in the transmission.

To partially confirm this, on a very flat concrete surface - put the transmission into neutral and try to roll the tractor a couple of feet. Next put the transmission into first gear and tie/clamp the clutch pedal all the way down - repeat the 'roll' process for a couple of feet. There should not be a big difference in the amount of effort to roll the tractor. If the effort is significantly different, then something is binding up inside the transmission. This test may or may not help in aiding in the diagnosis.

I hope that this helps you. Let us know what you find, NJDale
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Re: Mystery parts in hydraulic filter base

Postby Smiley » Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:30 am

b52c130 wrote:Smiley,
I would start by taking a very clean bucket and draining the transmission oil into the bucket and fishing around in the bottom of the bucket with a magnet. You might also want to unscrew the suction tube from the bottom of the transmission case to check for 'foreign objects' in that area also. Already changed oil, didn't notice anything out of ordinaryYou also might want to do a 'post mortum' on the hydraulic filter Will do(tear the sheet metal cover off the filter and see what is trapped between the thin cover and the filter media).

My guess is that you are going to find foreign metal pieces somewhere in that process. If you do find foreign metal, it means that something (bearing) is disintegrating in the transmission.

To partially confirm this, on a very flat concrete surface - put the transmission into neutral and try to roll the tractor a couple of feet. Next put the transmission into first gear and tie/clamp the clutch pedal all the way down - repeat the 'roll' process for a couple of feet. There should not be a big difference in the amount of effort to roll the tractor. If the effort is significantly different, then something is binding up inside the transmission. This test may or may not help in aiding in the diagnosis.It binds as if stepping on brakes even when rolling downhill, freewheels in neutral, I will yank covers off this week and get into this clutch brake thing go from there Thank you Dale, Landreo, Matt and Gary -- will try all suggestions this week and probably have more questions as I get into it
I hope that this helps you. Let us know what you find, NJDale
smiley - upstate NY --- Git r done
Learned fixin and tinkerin from my Father and scavenging from my buddies grandfather, who could go to the dump with a half load and come back with a full one
Smiley
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Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:47 pm
Location: Upstate NY
Zip Code: 13357
Tractors Owned: 154 Lo boy
Allis Chalmers B
IH 350 utility
Case 580 backhoe
Massey Ferg 399 4wd
Farmall A
Have had several other antique tractors including a Fordson with Trackson conversion.

Re: Mystery parts in hydraulic filter base

Postby Landreo » Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:31 am

Besides the clutch brake you may also just have a binding throwout bearing. Either will be clear when you take off the tunnel cover.
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Re: Mystery parts in hydraulic filter base

Postby b52c130 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:47 am

Smiley,
It looks to me to be the inner race from the front countershaft bearing. This bearing is accessible through the four bolt cover on the lower front of the transmission. The countershaft is the transmission shaft with the pinion gear on the rear of the shaft.

In the attached pictures, I beleive that the bearing on the far left is the countershaft bearing. The second picture is a picture of the front of the countershaft, where that particular bearing rides.

Hope that this helps you, NJDale
Attachments
Transmission Bearing 154.JPG
Transmission Bearings - 154
Transmission Bearing 154.JPG (25.45 KiB) Viewed 453 times
Transmission Counter Shaft with Pinion Gear - 2 Small.jpg
Transmission Countershaft with pinion gear
Transmission Counter Shaft with Pinion Gear - 2 Small.jpg (32.92 KiB) Viewed 453 times
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Re: Mystery parts in hydraulic filter base

Postby Smiley » Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:08 pm

Dale,
The part looks very much like the bearing race on the countershaft you show, but can't be a race as the outside in not machined and shows the casting marks. Looking at your photos prompted me to take a closer look at the transmission parts diagram and the spacers 17,19, 23 and 25 look like a possibility, although I can't tell the size and am most sure the transmission wouldn't function properly if one of those was broken. It does jump out of low gear but I figured that was probably the shift fork problem mentioned in several threads on this forum and one of those things I intended to check when I got around to it. I guess I'll get around to it this week and pull the top off the tranny while I have the covers off.
The broken part I have is slightly over 1/4" wide and I can't accurately tell the bore because one fits nicely around a 1/2" shaft and the other nicely around a 5/8" shaft so one has been scrunched or the other flattened when they went through the gears as evidenced by the nicks and gouges on them.
Thanks,
Don
smiley - upstate NY --- Git r done
Learned fixin and tinkerin from my Father and scavenging from my buddies grandfather, who could go to the dump with a half load and come back with a full one
Smiley
5+ Years
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Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:47 pm
Location: Upstate NY
Zip Code: 13357
Tractors Owned: 154 Lo boy
Allis Chalmers B
IH 350 utility
Case 580 backhoe
Massey Ferg 399 4wd
Farmall A
Have had several other antique tractors including a Fordson with Trackson conversion.

Re: Mystery parts in hydraulic filter base

Postby Smiley » Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:20 pm

I yanked the driveshaft cover off today and my braking while stepping on the clutch problem, certainly seems to be nothing more than the clutch brake. Will look up the adjustment procedure and when time allows, do that and yank the trans cover, check shift forks, fish around with a magnet and try to see what the broken part is/was.
smiley - upstate NY --- Git r done
Learned fixin and tinkerin from my Father and scavenging from my buddies grandfather, who could go to the dump with a half load and come back with a full one
Smiley
5+ Years
5+ Years
 
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:47 pm
Location: Upstate NY
Zip Code: 13357
Tractors Owned: 154 Lo boy
Allis Chalmers B
IH 350 utility
Case 580 backhoe
Massey Ferg 399 4wd
Farmall A
Have had several other antique tractors including a Fordson with Trackson conversion.


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