Allis B

All non-Cub/Cadet/IH/Farmall/Case tractor and machinery discussions.

Moderator: Team Cub

Forum rules
Notice: For sale and wanted posts are not allowed in this forum. Please use our free classifieds or one of our site sponsors for your tractor and parts needs.

Allis B

Postby Jim Becker » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:21 pm

I'm doing some work on an Allis Chalmers B and ran into a couple questions.

I need a fan belt. The tractor is an early version, 1939. A single belt runs the fan and the generator. It has an adjustable width pulley on the fan for adjusting tension. It has a generator with a fixed position upper bracket. I suppose this combination may have come about from starting with no electrical system and the generator added later. I looked at NAPAonline and found 3 belts listed. They all appear to be the same width but the lengths were 32.78, 36 7/8 and 34 1/8. I looked online at All States Ag Parts and they list one length, 37.89. Best I could measure the remains of the old belt, it looks like about 35 inches.

The generator upper bracket has 2 bends in it and has an overall shape that approximates an "L". If one bend was eliminated to make it a simple L shape, it would move the generator out enough to probably need another inch or so of belt. I wonder if somebody had a belt that wasn't long enough and rebent the upper bracket to make it fit. I don't know if the generator pulley is correct, but it looks reasonable. The adjustable pulley has nearly half of the adjustment available. I don't think any belt shorter than the old one can fit, but the longer ones are quite a bit longer. Does anyone know what brackets and belts belong on it? How about belt part numbers? Maybe a parts catalog that illustrates the bracket or gives some serial number breaks?

Another question, the steering wheel freely moves up and down quite a bit. It seems to just have the steering shaft inside the outer tube with no other support. Anybody know what sort of bushing, insert or ?? belongs in the tube to support the shaft. Doesn't look like the steering wheel has been off, so whatever was there has either broken apart and fallen out or slid down the tube.
User avatar
Jim Becker
Team Cub
Team Cub
 
Posts: 11941
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2003 3:14 pm
Location: MN
Zip Code: 55319
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Allis B

Postby Rudi » Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:55 pm

Jim:

Out of curiosity, I googled Allis Chalmers B Generator Bracket and Belts and got a few hits, one of which was this one on :eBay: VINTAGE ALLIS CHALMERS WC TRACTOR GENERATOR BRACKET SET

Image

Does this help?
Confusion breeds Discussion which breeds Knowledge which breeds Confidence which breeds Friendship

User avatar
Rudi
Team Cub
Team Cub
 
Posts: 28471
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2003 8:37 pm
Location: NB Dieppe, Canada
Zip Code: E1A7J3
eBay ID: ve9rhs
Skype Name: R.H. "Rudi" Saueracker, SSM
Tractors Owned: 1947 Cub "Granny"
1948 Cub "Ellie-Mae"
1951 Cub "Jethro"
Dad's Putt-Putt
IH 129 CC
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y
Twitter ID: Rudi Saueracker, SSM

Re: Allis B

Postby Bob McCarty » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:17 pm

Jim, I was out and asked our tractor guru your questions. He refurbishes and resells antique tractors. He found belt #'s in his Tisco catalog that were related to SN, but didn't quite understand the rest of the question. He said there was no bushing in the steering mount, just steel on steel, and didn't think there was even a grease or oil hole.

Bob
"We don't need to think more,
we need to think differently."
-Albert Einstein
Bob McCarty
Team Cub Mentor
Team Cub Mentor
 
Posts: 5646
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: CO, Longmont
Zip Code: 80501
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Allis B

Postby Eugene » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:45 pm

From WC Allis parts book. Ross steering gear. Under the cover there is a snap ring on top of the worm gear assembly holding a ball bearing assembly in place.

Either the snap ring is not in place or the upper bearing is shot. Loss of the bearing or snap ring or both would let the steering wheel/shaft move back and fort.

Looks like an easy repair. Hard part will be removing the steering sector from the tractor.

Edit: Probably mis-understood which up and down movement. Same parts manual shows a"Bushing, Jacket, worm shaft", Part number 226645, that fits inside the tube. Part number may not be the same for the B.

From the picture in the parts book, it's one substancial bushing. Can't tell but it doesn't look like it's all metal construction.
I have an excuse. CRS.
Eugene
Team Cub Mentor
Team Cub Mentor
 
Posts: 12530
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: Mo. Linn
Zip Code: 65051
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Allis B

Postby Bus Driver » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:02 pm

The generator mount and tensioning bracket as shown were used on the B in 1950, I know. And in other years also. The 1950 is the one with which I have experience. I do not know about the earliest models.
Luck favors those who are prepared
User avatar
Bus Driver
Team Cub Mentor
Team Cub Mentor
 
Posts: 2650
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:26 pm
Location: NC

Re: Allis B

Postby Eugene » Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:09 pm

The generator upper bracket shown in the WC parts manual is as Jim described - no adjustment.

The belt is only described with an Allis part number. Different motor - wouldn't fit any way.

Check the generator's bottom bracket - see if there is any adjustment there. Parts book shows two different bottom brackets. One apears to be adjustable - other not.

Another Edit: The Lavine steering gear was used up until mid 1939/1940. Date depends on which serial number chart used. The Lavine also has a bushing in the upper end of the tube. But and a big but - Note says that if you had a Lavine steering gear and something went wrong - you had to replace the whole thing with the Ross.

Generator bracket changed in the same time frame as mentioned above.

Another Edit: Guy Fay, Allis Chalmers 1933-1957. Another steering gear, "Gemmer" was used interchangable with the Ross. Gemmer for a series of serial numbers, then Ross, them Gemmer, etc.. Steering gear parts are now hard to find, specially the Gemmer.
I have an excuse. CRS.
Eugene
Team Cub Mentor
Team Cub Mentor
 
Posts: 12530
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: Mo. Linn
Zip Code: 65051
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Allis B

Postby Jim Becker » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:54 pm

The tractor serial number appears to be 12907, so pretty early (unless there is another 1 in front, but it looks more like a cast-in screw head way to the left). The generator is Delco 1101413, which I find listed as correct for some Bs. The generator date code is 1A8, which would be January 8 of some year that ends with 1 -- '41? '51? Either way, it was probably added or replaced some time after the tractor was built.

I do have to back up on what I said about the upper generator bracket not being adjustable. I found identical brackets on eBay and the upper bracket appeared to have a slot. So I checked again and found it does have an adjustment slot, but only an inch or so. I have never seen one with so little adjustment before so I didn't realize there was any. It is currently sitting about in the middle of the slot. The eBay parts also confirmed the second bend in the bracket as original. Here it is:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1940-Allis-Chalmers-B-tractor-generator-brackets-/160669562851?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2568a6f7e3
Image

I tried the "public access" online TISCO catalog but couldn't find belts in it. If I can get the AC part number for the proper belt for this version of everything, I'm sure I could cross reference it to a size or available belt.

The steering problem is the steering shaft support right at the steering wheel. I'm sure that I can make something that will take care of it. But I would like to know what belongs there, at least have some idea of what I am trying to copy.

I have taken some pictures that may clarify my questions, but I am posting this much for now and will come back with the pictures.
User avatar
Jim Becker
Team Cub
Team Cub
 
Posts: 11941
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2003 3:14 pm
Location: MN
Zip Code: 55319
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Allis B

Postby Bob McCarty » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:00 pm

Jim, The TISCO catalog said that for a SN prior to 3001, the belt was a D-10; after that it was a D-14. I don't know if that helps or even if it's accurate.

Bob
"We don't need to think more,
we need to think differently."
-Albert Einstein
Bob McCarty
Team Cub Mentor
Team Cub Mentor
 
Posts: 5646
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: CO, Longmont
Zip Code: 80501
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Allis B

Postby Eugene » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:27 pm

Cub Cadets/Ross steering sectors have a plastic bushing that sits in the top of the tube.

Basically a plastic part. Can be cut on a wood or metal lathe. Hole in center slightly larger than the steering rod. Outside diameter fits snubly into the tube. Lip on the top to keep the bushing from falling into the tube.

If the owner doesn't care about looking original - just functional. As above without the lip. Drill small holes on opposite sides of the tube. Slide bushing into place. Sheet metal screws to hold in place or if below the bushing to keep the bushing from droping further into the tube.

From pictures in the WC parts book, the bushing is several inches long - perhaps 3 inches long.
I have an excuse. CRS.
Eugene
Team Cub Mentor
Team Cub Mentor
 
Posts: 12530
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: Mo. Linn
Zip Code: 65051
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Allis B

Postby Jim Becker » Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:54 pm

Here is a picture of the upper generator bracket.
IMG_3231s.JPG

And here is the steering bushing problem.
User avatar
Jim Becker
Team Cub
Team Cub
 
Posts: 11941
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2003 3:14 pm
Location: MN
Zip Code: 55319
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Allis B

Postby Eugene » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:13 am

Measure the distance from the end of the tube to the back side of the recess in the steering wheel. Remove the steering wheel and measure the recess diameter. Subtract a bit from each measurement, this will provide the measurements for the lip on the bushing.

Measure the steering rod and inside diameter of the tube.

Visit your local hardware store - pvc plumbing supplies for a reducing coupling/bushing.

If you have a very old Agco/Allis dealership in your area they may still have the part.
I have an excuse. CRS.
Eugene
Team Cub Mentor
Team Cub Mentor
 
Posts: 12530
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: Mo. Linn
Zip Code: 65051
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Allis B

Postby Landreo » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:25 am

Not sure about the steering on a B but my C has a bushing and seal towards the top of the steering tube.
Landreo
5+ Years
5+ Years
 
Posts: 956
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:10 am
Location: SC, Ridgeway
Zip Code: 29130
Tractors Owned: fcub
1 cyl fcub
154
Earthmaster
JD 40MT
JD 420 crawler-loader
D-2 Cat dozer
AC Model C
Cub Cadets
Red-E
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Allis B

Postby staninlowerAL » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:14 pm

Jim, I have a service manual for the Allis B & C tractors which shows text and a picture of the the belt adjustment. Also the Gimmer and Ross steering box cut-away with text and pictures. I can't do pictures but if you will send me an email address, I'll copy these and send it via email. Good luck
Stan :D
staninlowerAL
Cub Star!!
Cub Star!!
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:34 pm
Zip Code: 36558

Re: Allis B

Postby Jim Becker » Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:33 pm

I know this is kind of an old thread. But I imagine some of you will see this update. I finally got the cooling system maintenance done and moved it back to the museum about a week ago. I internet ordered a belt from All States Ag Parts, which they had listed as 37.89" long. When it came, it was labeled 37 1/4 long. It fit OK. I did set the adjustable pulley on the fan a bit wider as it didn't appear that the speed ratio between the crankshaft and water pump was quite up to what the book calls for.

Once I had the belt, hoses and coolant replaced, I decided to look into the charging system. After making a new jumper from the generator to the cut-out and cleaning up all the connections, it charged. Most of the cleanup needed was for the ground circuit at the switch and electrical box end of things. I disconnected one end of the low charge resistor on the switch and swung it out to one side, changing the Lo - HI choice to NO - HI. This way, we can crank or tow start it without a battery. As long as the switch is in the low charge position, it won't hurt the generator to not have a battery.

I decided to let the steering stay as it is for another year (or more). There really is a bushing missing from the steering shaft near the steering wheel. Without doing some major disassembly, I don't know whether it totally disintegrated or if it just degraded enough to slide down the steering shaft. Actually doing anything constructive to the steering requires removing the steering wheel. It will probably have to be cut off to remove it. Not ready to start that project yet. By the way, using the parts diagrams I was finally able to decide it has a Gemmer steering gear rather than a Ross.

I want to thank everyone for their contributions to this project. I especially want to thank staninlowerAL for the additional details he sent me via emails.
User avatar
Jim Becker
Team Cub
Team Cub
 
Posts: 11941
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2003 3:14 pm
Location: MN
Zip Code: 55319
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Allis B

Postby staninlowerAL » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:10 pm

Jim, you are very welcome. Glad I could make a contribution. And thanks to you for the information about the museum and the link to the site. I found that I have a dirt scoop that is identical to one that is on display. I was wondering where I would be able to get information to ID it, so your link solved the problem for me. I've never seen another one like it. Stan :D
staninlowerAL
Cub Star!!
Cub Star!!
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:34 pm
Zip Code: 36558


Return to Other Tractors and Machinery

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests