Wisconsin VP4D

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Wisconsin VP4D

Postby enmim » Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:06 pm

Hello All,
I just bought a home-built log splitter. I've been wanting a splitter in the worst way for a while now. Its powered with a Wisconsin V4 air cooled motor. The engine is a model VP4D. Ive learned that there indeed was a model VP4D. its just not very common model. I have a few questions regarding firing order, ignition timing etc. Does anyone know of a good Wisconsin forum a guy could wander over to and get some guidance?
Thanks in advance,
Eldon
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Re: Wisconsin VP4D

Postby Rudi » Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:12 pm

Eldon:

G'day to you and congrats on getting your own home brewed splitter. I haven't looked around for a Wisconsin Engine forum but I assume it would be out there. However some of our members are right smart fellows and know their way around them Wisconsins. I think Eugene is one of the first that comes to mind.
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Re: Wisconsin VP4D

Postby enmim » Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:27 pm

Rudi wrote:Eldon:

G'day to you and congrats on getting your own home brewed splitter. I haven't looked around for a Wisconsin Engine forum but I assume it would be out there. However some of our members are right smart fellows and know their way around them Wisconsins. I think Eugene is one of the first that comes to mind.



Oh man that's good news Rudi, I don't believe I've chatted with Eugene, Ill see if I cant hunt him up!
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Re: Wisconsin VP4D

Postby Eugene » Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:33 pm

Search for the following " Wisconsin Motors Canada.CA". There will be a number of offerings with a great deal of service and technical information.

I just tried the Wisconsin Motors web site for a free down load of their service manuals. Apparent problem with the site.

http://www.wisconsinmotorscanada.ca/wen ... inder.html

Nother edit: http://gardentractortalk.com/.
4 pages of Wisconsin engine manuals - free down load. But didn't see a manual for the VP4d. But I have the feeling that most Wisconsin questions can answered by using one or several of the V4 engine manuals.
I have an excuse. CRS.
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Re: Wisconsin VP4D

Postby enmim » Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:46 pm

Hi Eugene et. all. Below are the issues I am trying to hash out.

Firing order?
Which cylinder is which, meaning how do you go about ID-ing actual cylinder on the engine, so i can verify that my firing order is indeed correct.Right now I'm guessing that the cylinder closest to the blower fan is #1.

I see two marks on the fan shroud tin work when i pull of the fan inlet screen, one it at roughly 10:00 and the other is roughly at 11:00 or so. My assumption is at high idle, they want the timing all in by the mark at 10:00 mark ( I'm also assuming that the fin marked with an "X" is where they want it timed from) and that at low idle they are looking for the timing at or about the 11:00 mark. Part of my issue is that i cant get the thing to idle down and stay smooth and running. As low as i can get it to idle, the timing is still way advanced from the 11:00 mark. At high idle I'm at the 10:00 or close to it

I really don't want to dial in too much advance. I like air cooled motors, and if i could avoid over heating mine or hammering it to smithereens with over advance id sure like to. But man oh man i cant get the thing to idle anywheres near what i would consider a low idle. This is by "ear" only I do not have a tach.

I've pulled the Dist cap to check point gap. The shaft has the SCREWIEST looking lobs (to actuate the points) on it you have ever seen. They are no wheres near evenly spaced..
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Re: Wisconsin VP4D

Postby Eugene » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:05 pm

Timing marks. First mark at around 9:30 o'clock on the shroud will be the advance mark. Next mark at around 10 or 10:30 will be the TDC mark for cylinder #1 and #3. Mark on shroud at around 1:30 o'clock will be the TDC mark for cylinder 2 & 4. The fin with the "X" is the TDC crankshaft timing mark.

Firing order is 1-3-4-2. #1 cylinder is the one closest to the shroud on the left side/bank. #3 cylinder rear left side. #2 cylinder front right bank.

Distributor cap wire locations vary by model and magneto or distributor. On some engines the distributor/magneto spark plug wires are not in engine firing order.

My current thought and suggestion. Since we know where the timing marks are and the engine runs. Remove the distributor cap, rotate the engine until the rotor points to the #1 spark plug tower location and the points just opening. This is point where the engine was firing at engine cranking speed.

Now either back up or roll the engine forward until the mark on the fin and the TDC #1 and #3 cylinder mark on the shroud line up.

You will probably have to remove the distributor to retime the distributor to the engine. You want the rotor to point to the center of the #1 spark plug tower and the points just opening - called static timing.

Edit: Spark plug wire location on distributor cap. Most 4 cylinder engine, the distributor or magnet operates at 1/2 engine rpms and the firing order and spark plug wiring in the distributor cap will match the firing order. EG. clock wise or counter clock wise. #1, #3, #4, #2. But on some Wisconsin engines the spark plug wire location is either clock wise or counter clock wise. #1, #2, #3, #4 with the same firing order, 1-3-4-2.

Since the distributor cam lobes are not regular in your distributor, thinking your distributor cap wiring order is 1-2-3-4. But I really don't know since I do not have the manual for your engine.

Another edit: I don't know where the #1 spark plug tower location is on the distributor cap. Just checked another Wisconsin service manual for a different 4 cylinder engine. The manual for this series engines shows completely different #1 plug tower locations on the distributor cap.
I have an excuse. CRS.
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Re: Wisconsin VP4D

Postby enmim » Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:38 pm

Eugene wrote:Timing marks. First mark at around 9:30 o'clock on the shroud will be the advance mark. Next mark at around 10 or 10:30 will be the TDC mark for cylinder #1 and #3. Mark on shroud at around 1:30 o'clock will be the TDC mark for cylinder 2 & 4. The fin with the "X" is the TDC crankshaft timing mark.

Firing order is 1-3-4-2. #1 cylinder is the one closest to the shroud on the left side/bank. #3 cylinder rear left side. #2 cylinder front right bank.

Distributor cap wire locations vary by model and magneto or distributor. On some engines the distributor/magneto spark plug wires are not in engine firing order.

My current thought and suggestion. Since we know where the timing marks are and the engine runs. Remove the distributor cap, rotate the engine until the rotor points to the #1 spark plug tower location and the points just opening. This is point where the engine was firing at engine cranking speed.

Now either back up or roll the engine forward until the mark on the fin and the TDC #1 and #3 cylinder mark on the shroud line up.

You will probably have to remove the distributor to retime the distributor to the engine. You want the rotor to point to the center of the #1 spark plug tower and the points just opening - called static timing.

Edit: Spark plug wire location on distributor cap. Most 4 cylinder engine, the distributor or magnet operates at 1/2 engine rpm and the firing order and spark plug wiring in the distributor cap will match the firing order. EG. clock wise or counter clock wise. #1, #3, #4, #2. But on some Wisconsin engines the spark plug wire location is either clock wise or counter clock wise. #1, #2, #3, #4 with the same firing order, 1-3-4-2.

Since the distributor cam lobes are not regular in your distributor, thinking your distributor cap wiring order is 1-2-3-4. But I really don't know since I do not have the manual for your engine.

Another edit: I don't know where the #1 spark plug tower location is on the distributor cap. Just checked another Wisconsin service manual for a different 4 cylinder engine. The manual for this series engines shows completely different #1 plug tower locations on the distributor cap.



This particular engine does not have a mark on the shroud at 1:30. I can only find two, one at 9:30 and the other at 10:30 or so.

As of now the ignition wires are in the cap in the 1*3*4*2 manner. The rotor spins counter clockwise. I static timed #1 using the 10:30 mark. I fired it up and the engine now idles fine, BUT, at that idle its now REALLY advanced...way way prior to even the 9:30 mark. Trying to raise the RPM causes the engine to instantly miss bad. What in the world is going on here? Recalling that uneven lobe clocking I'm thinking that the lobe that is currently "assigned" to #1 is not correct, and that the timing has at some point been cranked around to who knows what and that the engine happens to run like that. Something somewhere is not right.
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Re: Wisconsin VP4D

Postby Eugene » Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:38 pm

Let's try another ignition timing procedure.

1) Remove the screen from the flywheel.
2) About half way between the advance and the #1 and #3 TDC marks on the shroud will be a punch mark on the lip of the shroud.
3) Set engine with the rotor pointing at #1 plug tower location on distributor cap.
4) Set/line up the leading edge of the fin with the "X" on the punch mark on the lip of the shroud.
5) Static time the distributor.

VP4d parts and service manuals are available. Suggest purchasing or perhaps finding free down load for both.

Next issue is positive engine identification. I have found engines with the wrong shroud and engine identification tag in place and not correct for the engine. Some place along the line the engine tags/shrouds had been changed.

At this point, I don't know. The rotor position/location on the shaft is normally fixed, not changeable. Sounds like it's an ignition problem. But, with a previously unknown engine, anything is possible. Perhaps someone changed the distributor thinking one from another Wisconsin engine would work.

Next thing to check - if not already done - is timing the distributor to the engine. This is a seperate process than timing the spark to the engine.
I have an excuse. CRS.
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Re: Wisconsin VP4D

Postby enmim » Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:20 pm

Screen is off, had to remove it to see the timing marks we have all ready found. I cannot locate a punch mark anywhere on the shroud lip. I did find the part#
stamped into the rear of the engine, above the output shaft, BA49. Which like VP4D seems to be really rare. Rare enought that i cannot confirm that BA49 matches up with
VP4D.

I'm thinking that someone has done something along the
lines of swapping one distributor for another, or its simply a case of VP4D being a really obscure machine. Tomorrow ill see about sourcing the parts and service catalogs and
we'll see if that does not shed some light. Thanks for the help, I'll post my findings here.
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Re: Wisconsin VP4D

Postby Eugene » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:43 pm

And my last Wisconsin engine reference book.

Same timing procedure previously posted. The punch mark on the shroud lip may in fact be a hole located about half way between the advance and TDC mark for cylinder #1 and 3. The punch mark or hole is located in the same bolt circle holding the shroud to the engine.

Some more information from this manual.

The fiing interval between cylinders is: This would explain the odd distributor cam lobe configuration.

Crankshaft rotation from cylinder #1 to # 3 is 180 degrees.
Crankshaft rotation from cylinder #3 to #4 is 270 degrees.
Crankshaft rotation from cylinder #3 to #2 is 180 degrees.
Crankshaft rotation from cylinder #2 to #1 is 90 degrees.
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Re: Wisconsin VP4D

Postby Rudi » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:48 pm

Eldon:

This looks like an interesting thread on the VP4D - OT - Wisconsin VP4D firing order

A couple interesting excerpts:

Skyhawk Greg wrote:The VP4D definitely exists. The Wisconsin service manual for it is Issue MM-233B.


JDemaris wrote:VP4 and VP4D is 3 1/2" bore by 4" stroke - and is what you have. 154 cubin inches.

With any of the Wisconsin engines - the "D" at the end means it has Stellite exhaust valves and seats. 23 horse at 1400 RPM, 29 horse at 1800 RPM, and 31 horse at 2200 RPM.

Firing order is 1-3-4-2

Came in crank start and/or electric.

For ignition, came with a mag or battery-powered distributor.

Note - if battery igntion - there were two different distributors:

Half-speed distributor - Auto-Lite 1AD-4036-A

Full-speed distributor - Auto-Lite 1GW-4159-A


Seems JDemaris has the Service Manual which would be of great help.

This one I would rather buy if I had to get one of these. It is an original - Wisconsin VP4D Engine Instruction & Parts Manual

New Holland/Wisconsin VP4D Engine Parts Catalog Manual

As much as I dislike JenSales manuals, they can probably help out here:

Engines - Wisconsin Parts Manual (WI-P-VP4D)
Engines - Wisconsin Service Manual (WI-S-VP4D)
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Re: Wisconsin VP4D

Postby enmim » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:34 pm

Thanks Rudi. I found that thread a few days ago, which is the only reason I knew that what I have is somewhat odd! I'm with you regarding that original manual on ebay, I think ill pick that one up. I like those old manuals, they are kinda neat unto themselves.
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Re: Wisconsin VP4D

Postby Rudi » Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:07 pm

Eldon:

Yup, that Wisconsin VP4D Engine Instruction & Parts Manual is kinda cool. Hope you do buy it.

Image

The Parts Catalog is an original although for a New Holland application. I assume that this would be a useful addition as well. All you really need is the Service Manual for it and then you would be good to go. That might have to be the JenSales.... :roll:

I have been collecting original IH manuals now for almost 12 years. They are hard to find but I much prefer them to the reprints or things like the I&T series. There are sooooo many to get ... and it will take soooooooo long, but as with Cubs searching is at least half the fun :{_}: Course, trying to get some of the more rarer ones can get very expensive ... and even then you still don't get em. Missed a few over the years.
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