Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

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Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

Postby lazyuniondriver » Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:24 pm

Something about winter weight oils quite frequently overlooked is that its not all about cranking and starting.

Discussion seems to focus on cold weather cranking speed and success of starting using various winter weight oils leaving engine protection once the engine starts on the back burner.

One of the worse things you can do to an internal combustion engine is put it to work (anything above no load low idle) before the oil begins to completely circulate throughout the system.

How fast that happens is determined by what you pour in your crankcase.

A cold engine with no or very low oil pressure for the first several seconds will suffer only infinitesimal bearing wear as long as no load is placed on the engine and the oil hasn't outlived its useful life.

Oil residue remains on the bearing and thrust surfaces from the last run, protecting from metal to metal contact for a brief period of time after starting, another property incorporated into oils.

Over time, cold weather wear will contribute to bearing and thrust surface wear increasing tolerances, lowering oil pressure. This however should take dozens of years on ag equipment if proper cold weather starting procedures are followed and proper winter weight oil has been used.

The thing to remember is winter weight oils weren't exclusively refined for faster cranking but circulation as well.

If your cranking system is in good health, you may not need to drop down to a zero winter grade, it may crank fine with 90 weight in the sump, but how much oil circulation would you expect to have in the first half hour?

The lowest expected ambient air temperature in your region should be the only gauge used when determining the oil grade your engine will either protect itself with or destroy itself with.

The picture below depicts engine bearings damaged from cold starting.
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Re: Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

Postby ad356 » Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:12 am

so in other words changing my cub to the 10W30 from SAE 30 certainly didn't hurt it, in fact it probably helped the longevity of my engine
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Re: Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

Postby lazyuniondriver » Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:01 am

ad356 wrote:so in other words changing my cub to the 10W30 from SAE 30 certainly didn't hurt it, in fact it probably helped the longevity of my engine

Absolutely.

Pictures don't lie, cold weather starting will destroy an engine, that's fact.

In these and other forums, "personal preference" is used frequently when debating characteristics of lubricating oils. Personal preference should be soley limited to brand, not duty requirements.

If crankcase oil is too thick to allow an engine to start, no damage is done. If the oil is too thick and it does start, that's when damage occurs. The residual oil left behind is quickly displaced from the bearing surfaces and severe wear begins.

Warming to operating temperature before beginning work minimizes bearing surface wear and will greatly extend engine life.

Engines that run around the clock such as in power plants and over the road trucks and buses in most cases use higher winter grade oils since they are seldom, if ever started cold. These applications fall under a different duty classification.

Engines that sit for more than 8 hours in subfreezing temperatures like most agricultural equipment needs lower numbered winter grades of oil not necessarily for cold weather starting, but for cold weather bearing protection.

Lubricants of all varieties have made improvements by leaps and bounds over the last half century. Even in the last decade scientific breakthroughs have brought us products like zero friction grease. Take advantage of the technology at hand and step up to the next level of protection for all your engines.

As much as I like tinkering, I'd prefer to do only routine maintenance on my equipment, not major overhauls which have been prevented by simply making the right choice in the oil isle.
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Re: Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

Postby pickerandsinger » Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:38 am

Just for discussion, Does anyone have any thoughts on synthetic oil in a cub's engine....How about Lucas additive's....They make the wheels turn easier in the display at PeP Boys....Personally I just use SAE 30 Detergent oil....
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Re: Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

Postby Gary Dotson » Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:37 am

You're absolutely right, Driver. I alluded to cold weather bearing damage in the other post. Like you, I used to have to cold start diesel engines on a daily basis. Once the engine started, we maintained only enough rpm to keep the engine running and to allow warm up. Since more damage is done during this period than is done during the rest of the day's run, cold starts were included in our durability test procedures. If it were going to damage engine components, we wanted to do it there, rather than after the engine hit the market.
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Re: Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

Postby ad356 » Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:32 am

i wonder why then would my CASE/IH dealer insist that SAE 30 should or could be used in my cub year round. if eventual bearing failure is the result, would they be prepared to be held responsible for damage to my completely healthy engine. of course, they would never take the blame and hold themselves accountable. i even asked them if SAE 30 was acceptable for year round use, they insisted it was. i know many people might have gotten away with it throughout the years, but clearly it is not what international harvester recommended for these engines when they were designed and while oils have improved what has changed is that there is no 10W, 20W, and 30W there is simply 10W30, 10W40, and SAE 30. it still states the in service and owners manuals that oil grade should be changed with the climate conditions the tractor is to be operated in. maybe the people at case/IH need better training on farmall C60 engines, i know that its not a current product but i'm guessing that a fairly large percentage of their customers own these engines, perhaps they would tell their customers proper information on engine oils that should be ran in these engines for winter use so they dont ruin or wear their engines out at accelerated rate.
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Re: Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

Postby lazyuniondriver » Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:14 am

pickerandsinger wrote:Does anyone have any thoughts on synthetic oil in a cub's engine...

Whether to switch to synthetics depends on the application or perhaps more importantly, the age of the equipment and its operating environment.

Synthetics at premium price offer slightly better engine protection and offer long periods between drain intervals, probably the biggest advantage people look for when deciding whether or not to switch.

Increases in horsepower and fuel mileage have also been realized by switching to synthetics, but I highly doubt it will boost a Cub up to pulling a double bottom.

But here's the deal breaker: Outside contamination. The two words never mentioned in the synthetic oil switch sales pitch especially pertaining to older agricultural and industrial equipment.

Synthetic oils were originally developed for the aerospace industry where little dirt exists in the operating environment.

Modern oils are designed to collect contaminants the filters miss, holding them in suspension until the oil is renewed. (The reason oil is recommended to be drained at operating temperature.)

Both synthetic and mineral oils can only carry or hold so much contamination, the overflow so to speak, is deposited and collects inside your engine.

Most contaminants are the byproducts of combustion and wear, however some enter from the surrounding environment... Especially engines with open crankcase ventilation... I can't think of a dusty, dirtier environment than where farm and industrial equipment operate.

I would not suggest switching to synthetic oil for the sole purpose of stretching the oil change interval. It is imperative to change the oil before it reaches its contamination saturation point.

It now becomes a matter of economics. Do you care to spend a lot more money for a little more protection yet willing to pull the plug as frequently as you do now?

Unless the OEM called for synthetic oil from the factory,
this is where personal preference might come into play.

Ag and industrial equipment manufacturers will eventually all switch to synthetics with engine design changes and to meet emission standards. I always suggest sticking with factory service recommendations on new equipment.

It's pretty much been proven synthetics oils provide better lubrication properties and may save you money in the long run.

If you switch, limit it to your on highway operations for the real cash savings.

I feel the use of synthetic oil in a Cub would be a waste of money, just my personal preference.
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Re: Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

Postby Paul Wells » Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:25 am

lazyuniondriver wrote:
As much as I like tinkering,


These little tractors have lasted for 50,60 years by following the instruction of the IHC engineers. They designed them for the hard working small farmer, and the cub preformed very well all these years. As for me I will try to keep my cubs as they were designed. I guess I am not bent on reinventing the cub, I like them the way they are.
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Re: Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

Postby lazyuniondriver » Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:29 am

Gary Dotson wrote:Since more damage is done during this period than is done during the rest of the day's run

That may be an understatement. I can't find a reference to cite but learned while attending a Cummins seminar shortly after the L-10 engine debut, if the engine is put to work after oil pressure is realized without the warm up period, 40 hours or one working week of wear will be taken off the bearing surfaces. I don't recall if this was an L-10 specific statement or a broad statement in general.
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Re: Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

Postby lazyuniondriver » Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:37 am

wellsknob wrote:These little tractors have lasted for 50,60 years by following the instruction of the IHC engineers.

I will agree and add by simply using today's modern lubricants, the next 60 will come a lot easier. Our grandchildren may never have to experience rolling in a set of bearings.
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Re: Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

Postby lazyuniondriver » Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:50 am

ad356 wrote:i wonder why then would my CASE/IH dealer insist that SAE 30 should or could be used.

Manufacturers will send out a TSB (technical service bulletin) or campaign letter to dealers or service outlets if an adjustment or replacement of parts, fluids, or technology is needed to maintain product health and or customer relations.

This is not a recall but merely a directive for future service department repair and billing.

But like everything else, this costs companies thousands to accomplish. Perhaps acquisition after acquisition stalled any forthcoming revisions on older Harvester equipment.

Off topic, before you pay for any "routine" maintenance items on your vehicles inside or outside of warranty, always call the dealer or manufacturer with your VIN number in hand and ask if your vehicle has any "open campaigns".

You will be surprised what you can get done for free.

This also applies to used vehicles new to you.

Even brake jobs are occasionally covered at no cost because the original lining material has been deemed too soft and wore down prematurely.

You will never be notified unless the issue is safety related and a formal "recall" is issued, so there is a good chance there are items in need of attention on what you are driving which you are unaware of.

If the TSB is not called to the dealers attention at the time of write up, there is a high probability they will not call it to your attention yet will bill you in full for the repair.

It is unknown if they also submit the job for warranty compensation after you have paid for it, creating a double dip.
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Re: Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

Postby Rudi » Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:13 pm

Personal preference for me was based on the recommendations of the mechanics at Babineau's our CaseIH Dealer for decades. They serviced a lot of Cubs and others in the Letter series for years and insisted on the Low Ash SAE30wt oils. My small engine guru always said SAE30wt was his preference, so based on those two recommendations that is what I used and have used since I got Ellie as well as what I used in my small engines.

After talking to Gary and a few others and then googling small engine oil weight imagine my surprise when I find out on the B&S site this Engine Oil Recommendations:

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Again after talking to Gary, I have decided to not start Ellie until I get to Costco in the next day or so. It is time to do oil changes .. and I am now moving over to Shell Rotella 10W30.
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Re: Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

Postby ad356 » Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:29 pm

lazyuniondriver wrote:
ad356 wrote:i wonder why then would my CASE/IH dealer insist that SAE 30 should or could be used.

Manufacturers will send out a TSB (technical service bulletin) or campaign letter to dealers or service outlets if an adjustment or replacement of parts, fluids, or technology is needed to maintain product health and or customer relations.

This is not a recall but merely a directive for future service department repair and billing.

But like everything else, this costs companies thousands to accomplish. Perhaps acquisition after acquisition stalled any forthcoming revisions on older Harvester equipment.

Off topic, before you pay for any "routine" maintenance items on your vehicles inside or outside of warranty, always call the dealer or manufacturer with your VIN number in hand and ask if your vehicle has any "open campaigns".

You will be surprised what you can get done for free.

This also applies to used vehicles new to you.

Even brake jobs are occasionally covered at no cost because the original lining material has been deemed too soft and wore down prematurely.

You will never be notified unless the issue is safety related and a formal "recall" is issued, so there is a good chance there are items in need of attention on what you are driving which you are unaware of.

If the TSB is not called to the dealers attention at the time of write up, there is a high probability they will not call it to your attention yet will bill you in full for the repair.

It is unknown if they also submit the job for warranty compensation after you have paid for it, creating a double dip.




lol, i dont think GM has opened any "open campaigns" on my 1991 chevy cavalier. i have a house, a mortgage, and i make $14 per hour so i dont spend much on vehicles. i get my cars from down south and do my OWN repairs. my car is simple and easy to repair and i do it myself. i also doubt case/IH has done any updates on the documentation concerning the farmall cub (or any other farmall product) in many, many years.

is it ok to put synthetics into a 50 year old engine that i dont know the history of. it runs well but i dont know if it has ever received a rebuilt or if it still has 50 year old seals. if i run synthetics will i get oil leaking out of places it has never leaked before... or is that a myth
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Re: Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

Postby lazyuniondriver » Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:04 pm

ad356 wrote:is it ok to put synthetics into a 50 year old engine that i dont know the history of.


I have no firsthand experience in doing so. I would not care to speculate on seal or consumption issues.

You would best be served by doing your own research and decision making pertaining to switching to synthetic oil. Perhaps others here can relate their personal experiences if they have experimented with synthetics in the past.
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Re: Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

Postby lazyuniondriver » Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:35 pm

Rudi wrote:Personal preference for me was based on the recommendations...

Prior to our ease of internet access and the wide spectrum of test data uploaded for browsing covering every subject under the sun, a man could only decide what to preference by gathering information from experienced folks, respected elders, textbooks, or from their personal education and experience. Occasionally advice from some of the aforementioned may not have been reliable.

As an example, I was never able to convince my father the wind chill factor has no effect on cold weather starting. 20 degrees is 20 degrees no matter how fast the wind is blowing. The only effect wind has is blowing away heat you are trying to apply to warm things up. I know people who still would take my dad's side offering hours of debate about wind chill.

Can you believe everything you read on the internet? You have to consider the source of the information. Data submitted from testing laboratories and OE manufacturers' such as the B & S oil temperature chart you shared, I would regard as reliable.

I think I've mentioned this before, I like to learn one new thing everyday. I'm not afraid of changing a long time practice due to the discovery of new or updated reliable information. It's part of the learning process.
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