Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

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Re: Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

Postby Landreo » Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:16 am

lazyuniondriver wrote:
Rudi wrote:Personal preference for me was based on the recommendations...

Prior to our ease of internet access and the wide spectrum of test data uploaded for browsing covering every subject under the sun, a man could only decide what to preference by gathering information from experienced folks, respected elders, textbooks, or from their personal education and experience. Occasionally advice from some of the aforementioned may not have been reliable.

As an example, I was never able to convince my father the wind chill factor has no effect on cold weather starting. 20 degrees is 20 degrees no matter how fast the wind is blowing. The only effect wind has is blowing away heat you are trying to apply to warm things up. I know people who still would take my dad's side offering hours of debate about wind chill.

Can you believe everything you read on the internet? You have to consider the source of the information. Data submitted from testing laboratories and OE manufacturers' such as the B & S oil temperature chart you shared, I would regard as reliable.

I think I've mentioned this before, I like to learn one new thing everyday. I'm not afraid of changing a long time practice due to the discovery of new or updated reliable information. It's part of the learning process.



Good post.
I am an evidence based person, if there is a real study that supports a course of action then that is the right course to follow. I do not understand why anyone would want to use straight weight oil or even worse, non-detergent oil, for an engine. Oil has changed a bit in the past 60 years. Putting 10W oil in an engine may help at low temps for starting but may be too thin once the engine warms to operating temps. Multiviscosity oils correct that problem.

I also do not believe everything I read on this or any other web board nor do I always believe what is written in a book. Try to determine if what is posted fits with the accepted science. The accepted science may still be wrong but is a good place to start.

Even though I believe in multiweight oils, a cub engine is not a Cummins. I expect the bearing loading is different and the cub may be a lot less likely to be damaged during startup. Old oil left over from the turkey fry may work in a cub engine but if you have to buy the oil you may as well use a modern oil.
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Re: Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

Postby ad356 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:59 pm

multi viscosity is appropriate for winter use but is not heavy enough for summer use. 10W30 will supposedly is 30W at higher temperatures, in reality this is not true. a good example is small single cylinder engines; run that 10W30 on a hot summer day in a k series kohler you will end up with higher oil consumption AND additional engine wear. i will be changing my cub back over to 30W when spring comes. if you look at any small engine oil chart it will state the 10W30 or 5W30 is what is to be ran at cold temps and 30W is what is to be run at higher temps
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Re: Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

Postby lazyuniondriver » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:01 pm

In a perfect world, temperature specific straight weight oil for starting and warming, then a change for the days expected temperature and another change if that temperature swings another 20 degrees either way would provide maximum engine protection.

Since this is not practical, multi vis and winter blends bridge the gap from one temperature extreme to the other.

Where I live, there is a wide temperature difference between winter and summer and that bridge may well be too short requiring 2 different oils for summer and winter extreme duty protection.
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Re: Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

Postby Landreo » Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:33 pm

ad356 wrote:multi viscosity is appropriate for winter use but is not heavy enough for summer use. 10W30 will supposedly is 30W at higher temperatures, in reality this is not true. a good example is small single cylinder engines; run that 10W30 on a hot summer day in a k series kohler you will end up with higher oil consumption AND additional engine wear. i will be changing my cub back over to 30W when spring comes. if you look at any small engine oil chart it will state the 10W30 or 5W30 is what is to be ran at cold temps and 30W is what is to be run at higher temps


Why do you say that 10w-30 is not 30 weight at operating temps? I have not found any reference to support that.
Kohler does recommend multiweight oils at least for the few random engines I looked at as does Briggs and even my Harbor Freight engine. Rudi posted the Briggs recommendations on page one of this thread.

I have seen but don't know if it is true that 10W-30 is really 10W oil with a viscosity improver. It does not take 30 weight and make it 10W in the winter but takes 10W and thickens to 30 weight when hot. If the viscosity improver or modifier were to stop working then you are not left with 30 weight oil but thinner 10W oil. The viscosity improver may become less effective with time but I found no evidence that multiweight oil is less than stated at least for the temperature standards stated in the testing protocols.
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Re: Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

Postby lazyuniondriver » Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:27 pm

Landreo wrote:It does not take 30 weight and make it 10W in the winter but takes 10W and thickens to 30 weight when hot.

Until attending petroleum seminars, I too was under the impression motor oils "thinned themselves out" to their winter grade in cold weather when actually as you stated, the opposite is true. Additives shore up heated oil to achieve its designated higher number grade and remain dormant when cold.

At one seminar the analogy was given that refrigerated or frozen items thicken or freeze but heated mixtures can go both ways. Cooking food is an example of liquid solidification by heat.

Engine oils have drain interval periods because these additives, unlike the oil itself, tend to evaporate or be used up and broken down over time. When the additives break down, you are left with an engine protected only at the winter grade weight used for starting.

One Diesel engine brand famous for oil leakage would sometimes exceed mileage between major overhauls than competing brands because the crankcase capacity was renewed every few days because they leaked so bad. I'm sure this has extended the life of many automotive engines as well.
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Re: Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

Postby outdoors4evr » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:51 am

Are you now campaigning against repairing leaky rear seals? :mrgreen:

Why can't we just use common sense. Follow the recommendations in the manual. (Even if the manual is 50+ years old)
Light weight oil in cold weather, heavier weight oil in warm weather. Anything else is at user discretion.
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Re: Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

Postby ntrenn » Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:32 pm

But then should we not all be seeking out and using non-detergent 10W for the winter and 30W for the summer?

Our cub has had nothing in it but detergent oil for the last 20+ years and it shows - no sludge, no smoke, doesn't use a quart of oil in a year while mowing every week (1-2 hours).
Oil technology has improved so much in even the last 10 years that the cub should do nothing but love the new wear protection and longevity it provides.

I have an S10 that I bought new in December 1985 - it just turned 27 yesterday - and it's had nothing but the cheapest oil and filters every 3000 miles since the day it came home. That old Iron Duke 2.5 has 299,975 miles on it and still does not use oil to this day. The motor is as clean as a whistle inside, but the poor truck body is falling through the frame. I've thought seriously about transplanting it into a cub - it's only an inch longer than the C60...
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Re: Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

Postby Jim Becker » Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:58 pm

There is no such thing as 30W, never was. That is the point of this whole thread.
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Re: Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

Postby ntrenn » Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:13 pm

Sorry Jim...SAE10 or SAE30 oil.

Too many people put too much faith in what they hear around the water cooler. (detergent, multigrade, brand, etc) A multigrade 10w30 will do the job just fine in a Cub or any other small engine year round and will be superior in performance to any oil available in 1948. If one has doubts about their oil's performance, they should take samples and send them off to the lab - such as Blackstone lab. I sent one off on my Aurora a while back - after 5000 miles on a partial synthetic, the oil still met new oil performance requirements - the lab suggested I could double the drain interval but I figure oil is far cheaper than a new engine. How many 1948 engines are still out there without a rebuild that have 300,000 miles on them - my bet is none. I have 2 cars over 200,000 miles and 2 more approaching 200,000 miles - over 1,000,000 miles of GM product in the driveway and not one oil related failure - all have run 10W30 or 5W30 their whole lives of whatever was on sale or had a rebate.

As far as engine wear, one of the biggest improvements in engine wear over time has been air filtration. If one wants to reduce engine wear a REAL air filter will do more for both engine wear and oil life than you will spend on the filter. The oil bath filter, although good for its day, is NEVER found in today's world as the only air filter on an installation. It can be found as a 'precleaner' but never as the only air filtration system. Wix makes a self-contained filter that will work perfect on a Cub.

If you are like me and only change oil in the spring, a multiweight either 10W30 or 15W40 should do you just fine in most climates. I don't think you can work a Cub hard enough and long enough to exceed the capabilities of a 10W30 oil in any climate.
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Re: Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

Postby lazyuniondriver » Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:53 pm

outdoors4evr wrote:Are you now campaigning against repairing leaky rear seals? :mrgreen:

Why can't we just use common sense.


Common sense tells you an engine needs oil to survive. Selecting the oil for your application moves from common sense to an educated decision.

Years ago when petroleum was cheap compared to today's prices, replenishing oil was cheaper than replacing seals and gaskets.

The industry wide standard in freight was to fill it instead of fix it.

Large freight haulers such as Consolidated Freightways inserviced new units with bulk oil storage dispensers on the back of the cab gravity feeding the crankcase if driver enroute oiling was necessary. The crankcase would frequently deplete before the fuel tanks did.

At the drivers slip seat or half way point, oil level was checked and if found to be low on the stick, the quarter turn valve was opened dispensing the needed oil into the crankcase to complete the trip.

This modification paid for itself quickly by utilizing bulk oil terminal prices for on road oiling instead of gallon jug prices at the truck stop. The oil tanks were topped off at company terminals during fueling.
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Re: Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

Postby Jim Becker » Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:33 pm

There isn't a 10, only a 10W.

Just because a particular oil or type of oil works well in one situation, doesn't mean it is the right choice in another. Modern oils are better in many ways than the older oils, but modern engines are designed to depend on the better oils. Operating temperature, bearing clearance and even bearing size parameters go hand in hand with capabilities of the oil. That is one of the reasons those temperature/viscosity charts earlier in this thread are all different from each other. They are recommendations for different engines. You can't just go pick any oil off a shelf and say it is better than any oil from 1948. It may not be better FOR A SPECIFIC APPLICATION.

Paper filters have progressed a long way in the last 60 years. But they are not better in all situations. Most car companies changed over from oiled foam to paper by the early '60s. But most cars spend essentially their whole life on pavement. A lot of machinery companies stayed with oil bath. The last Cub came with an oil bath cleaner in 1979. There are reasons for that. They use paper elements now on a lot of off road equipment. But every one I have ever seen, and I suspect every other one that came out of a machinery factory, is used with a centrifugal precleaner. Paper elements filter out smaller particles than an oil bath. Consequently, they plug up too quickly if used by themselves. Most of those small particles are too small for the older engines with larger clearances to care about one way or another. The main effect of a paper element by itself on an older machine is to cause a maintenance problem.
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Re: Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

Postby rphazen » Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:17 pm

While I am not so sure this a good subject for a new guy to jump in on I do have a question.

First the ground work:
The oil industry has reduced the zddp levels in motor oil. Zinc and phosphorus is used as an anti-wear additive but they are pollution problems. Flat tappet engines are becoming a bit of a dinosaur so the added zddp is not needed through out almost all applications.

Having gone through this with my flat tappet push rod v-twin motorcycle engine I made changes in the oil I use in it to ensure a high enough zddp level. We were experiencing cam and lifter failures due to friction from something, the common thought was the use of oil with lowered zddp levels caused this.

I don't use Amsoil products, but their document is an interesting read:

http://www.amsoil.com/techservicesbulle ... tappet.pdf

So my question even though the Cub engine will never see the spring pressures or RPM's like my motorcycle engine would, will it cause cam and lifter failures using the "new" 10w-30 oils with the much reduced zddp levels.

Dad's gone now, however, I can still hear him say "Only low ash IH oil goes in here". :) I like the idea of a lighter weight oil for the winter. My Cub stays in a barn without electricity.


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Re: Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

Postby Jim Becker » Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:56 pm

Rather than rattling on about the ZDDP question, I suggest you go to this page and read the initial post. If it is too long, skip to the 3rd from the end paragraph that starts "In addition to the protection " and read it a couple times. From what I have seen of Amsoil's technical articles, they seem to stick with valid statements. However, they seem to not be above arranging those statements in a way that encourages you to draw some less than valid conclusions. Their recommendations are always some Amsoil product that addresses your less than valid concern.
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?16019-Engine-oil-mythology-debunked-and-ZDP-content
Bottom line, don't worry about ZDDP.
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Re: Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

Postby telleed » Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:08 pm

Been using SAE40 in my '47 cub. The oil pressure runs much higher (all the way to the right) and never have to add any oil between changes.
Given that I only use it in the winter and from what I have been reading here, I am considering switching back to SAE30
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Re: Winter Weight Oil, Cranking and Lubrication

Postby tomcat » Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:49 pm

i would like to know more about the wix self contained filter that ntrenn mention. thanks tom
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