Trying to save a Super C

Farmall C & Super C Tractors, 1948-1954

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Re: Trying to save a Super C

Postby Eugene » Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:04 am

Eric85 wrote:This engine has sleeves and can be replaced. But what if the sleeves have worn? Is it possible to use oversize rings on the pistons?
Yes. But you will have to know the what your are doing - and then, most often file down the end of each ring to obtain the required end gap.
Eric85 wrote:My cylinders are measuring about 3.186 inches.
Standard bore diameter was 3.125". Sleeve and piston kit increased bore diameter to 3.250". If your measurement is accurate - you need to find out what was previously done to the engine.
The bearings on the crankshaft are replaceable. Is there any special tool or technique used?
Copper or brass nail. Insert into oil hole in crankshaft. Rotate crankshaft - rolling out the upper half of the bearing.

Ditto what Boss Hog just posted. Again.
I have an excuse. CRS.
Eugene
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Re: Trying to save a Super C

Postby Eric85 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:20 pm

It sounds like replacing the bearings could cause something bad to happen, I don't want that.

I'll try to find someone that might be able to look at the tractor.

If I don't mess with the bearings I still would like to get those cylinder walls cleaned up. I don't think it would be wise trying to
run it with the rust in the cylinders.
I have to take more measurements and learn how to get the right size rings I'll need.
I'll measure the cylinders how the manual says and post what I find.

Hopefully it doesn't seem like I'm going in circles, I'm learning as much as I can. Thanks for the feedback.
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Re: Trying to save a Super C

Postby Eugene » Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:03 pm

Next step is to push out the pistons. Forget the main bearings at this time. They are easy to replace.

Stop by your nearest tractor dealership - any make. Ask the head mechanic to inspect the tractor and provide his opinion. Pay him $50-, cash, for his expertise and time. $50- will get his attention, out there, and be a very good investment on your part.

Realize that the engine is just one functioning part of the tractor. You can spend a $1000- or more on the engine and still have a piece of junk. The mouse nest (?) in the last photo - pressure plate/clutch needs to be pulled and the flywheel inspected - mouse pee.
I have an excuse. CRS.
Eugene
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Re: Trying to save a Super C

Postby Eric85 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:18 pm

I realize this is going to be a work in progress for a long time and I'm ok with that.

I guess my grandfather bought this tractor in 1975 from a guy who got it in Canada. Other then that bit of history
what was done to the tractor mechanically besides oil changes and a few small things is unknown.

I'm planning on taking measurements on cylinders tonight. I see some online parts dealers sell rings for the c123 engine in
3- 3/16" Was that a standard size for some of these tractors?
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Re: Trying to save a Super C

Postby Eugene » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:52 pm

Eric85 wrote:I'm planning on taking measurements on cylinders tonight. I see some online parts dealers sell rings for the c123 engine in 3- 3/16" Was that a standard size for some of these tractors?
Eric85 wrote:My cylinders are measuring about 3.186 inches.
Standard bore diameter was 3.125". Sleeve and piston kit increased bore diameter to 3.250". If your measurement is accurate - you need to find out what was previously done to the engine.
AGAIN. Don't order any parts or tools until you know what's going on. If your previous measurement was accurate - then it was originally a standard cylinder bore that has been rebored to .060" over.

Flipping through a tractor parts catalog - says some early Super C's had a 3" bore.
I have an excuse. CRS.
Eugene
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Re: Trying to save a Super C

Postby Eric85 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:23 am

I'm trying to figure out the cylinders and what the deal is. I haven't ordered any parts yet, I want to be sure to get the
right parts when I do.

Last night I took measurements of the cylinders at the top, middle and bottom using a telescoping bore gauge set and a
micrometer. I’ll post my readings later.
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Re: Trying to save a Super C

Postby Eric85 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:18 pm

I ment to post this earlier.

There is a part number on top of the pistons it is
370147- R1

I took measurements of all the cylinders at 90 degree angles (top, middle, bottom).

I'll just post the top measurements for now.

#1
3.1894

#2
3.1861

#3
3.1878

#4
3.1910

Hopefully someone can help me figure out what I have and if I can get new rings.
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Re: Trying to save a Super C

Postby Eugene » Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:59 pm

Eric85 wrote:I took measurements of all the cylinders at 90 degree angles (top, middle, bottom). #2. 3.1861.
Remeasure this bore. It reads .0014 under size for a 3 3/16" bore. Should read minimum, 3.1875".

Allowance for rings is .005" over the bore. So far other 3 cylinders are within the .005" range for 3 3/16" rings. But you will still have to measure the pistons.
I have an excuse. CRS.
Eugene
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Re: Trying to save a Super C

Postby Eric85 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:26 am

I remeasured #2 bore, I did it about 4 times to be sure.

3.1884

Next I'll measure the piston
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Re: Trying to save a Super C

Postby Eric85 » Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:55 am

Pulled #3 piston.
One of the rings is stuck.

Took some measurements of it.

Bottom
3.1833

Top
3.1639
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Re: Trying to save a Super C

Postby Eric85 » Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:07 pm

Now that I have measured one piston wondering what the measurements are telling me.

Also I'm trying to understand the process for determining ring size based on cylinder and piston measurements.

#3 cylinder measured 3.1878
Piston skirt was 3.1833
Giving me a differance of 0.0045"
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Re: Trying to save a Super C

Postby Eugene » Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:48 pm

Eric85 wrote:Also I'm trying to understand the process for determining ring size based on cylinder and piston measurements.
The bore was originally 3.1875" in diameter. You can use standard rings for the 3 3/16" bore up to .005" over or with a bore measurement of 3.1905" or under.

However, you need to find the thickness of each ring in the ring set. Then measure the ring groove on your pistons to determine if a ring grooves have been machined to accomodate a spacer.

Next step prior to installing rings on pistons is to insert the rings in the intended bores and check the ring end gap.

Piston skirt measurements. I don't have the service manual for this particular engine. You need to obtain the IH manual for the engine - not the I&T manual. Service manual will provide the specific allowable piston skirt diameter.
I have an excuse. CRS.
Eugene
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Re: Trying to save a Super C

Postby Eric85 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:13 pm

Finally got some measurements from the piston rings using a digital micrometer.

Top ring
0.088

Top ring groove 0.096

Middle ring 0.092 Middle ring groove - 0.091

Bottom (oil ring) 0.197 Ring groove - 0.197 The oil ring looks to have a spacer of some sort on the top and
bottom of the oil ring. You can see it in the pic.

Image

Image

Is the spacer something that needs to be replaced with the oil ring or can you just replace the ring?
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Re: Trying to save a Super C

Postby Eugene » Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:20 pm

Eric85 wrote:Is the spacer something that needs to be replaced with the oil ring or can you just replace the ring?
Each and every manufacturer makes different configurations and shapes of piston rings. The spacers in the oil ring are probably part of the ring manufacturers oil control ring design. But, you still need to measure the ring groove to make sure.
I have an excuse. CRS.
Eugene
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Re: Trying to save a Super C

Postby Eric85 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:19 pm

ok good to know.
Do I need a special tool to get the oil ring spacers out?
Or can I carefully expand them and take them off?
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