Hey Guys, I need your help..

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Hey Guys, I need your help..

Postby Rudi » Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:51 pm

Al, my neighbour down the road, turn right go up the road about a mile or as the crow flies from my shop about 1/4 mile... has his Cub over here at my place. Ray and I loaded it with his crane when we went to pick up what remains of Jethro after the parts swap.

Image

Anyways, Al has been having problems with his Cub, from needing a gasket for the Reservoir, to still needing a choke thingy... that aluminum piece the choke rod connects too -- I am having a brain f.rt moment and can't remember what it is called.. to having starting problems.

So, we elected to send his Cub here so I could give him a hand..

Major problems:
    1. No start - starter drags even with full charge.. will turn over 2 or 3 times then quits. Starter does not get hot.
    2. Rat's nest for wiring.. and I mean a rat's next.. cables running all over the place.. I should have taken pics, but it was too embarassing... thank the Lord, I had nothing to do with that mess..
    3. Distributor and 12 volt.. (which means I am really up the crik here as I know nuddink about 12 volt systems.. which is even less than what I know about mags which is not nearly enought to be not-too-dangerous :!: :roll: :oops: :roll: :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol: )
    4. No choke thingy
    5. No Battery or tool box.. so battery just slides around the deck.. gotta do something about that..
    6. 1 pancake headlight with lens, 1 pancake headlight with no lens... and no wiring.
    7. 1 switch that is a mess

Anyways..

Being the brilliant dolt that I can be at times.. I had the presence of mind to take both my GSS-1411 (which is useless for this), the GSS-1012 - Electrical - which is almost as useless.. because it does not show 12 volt... BUT .. I did print off Bob Melvilles's

Farmall 12 volt Delco 10SI Single Wire Conversion
Image

I figured I had better start eliminating problems so the first thing I decided to do was get rid of the rats nest. No sense trying to diagnose a mess. So, one by one I stripped out each of the rat's nest strands and re-ran either new cabling or rebuilt connections. Each re-built or new connection entailed a spae-nauer crimp on and then each was soldered then liquid electrical tape to seal. I used all 10ga primary wire except for one wire which I left original. It was in good shape - 12ga and had continuity (this is the 12 ga running from the ignition switch to the coil). I repaired the main positive cable from the battery to the starter and re-ran it properly. Made a new Ground cable and grounded to clean bare metal ground (where bat box would go in casting) Fixed the dimmer coil in the switch, and rewired the pull ignition switch, light switch and ammeter according to diag above.

However.. significant differences.. it looks like a 10SI but has no labeling to confirm such, but the 3 terminals are there. Primary from Starter to Bat term on alternator as per above. But.. there was cabling from the other two poles.. pole 1 is positive and goes to the ammeter and pole 2 is negative and goes to a new ground. (Had to do this to get it to turn over).

Have newer elcheapo 12 volt lights (Al asked me to swap him Granny's for his -- ok.. ah duhhhh.. wonder who got the deal huh :!: :?: :idea: :?: :roll: :shock: :D :lol: ).... need to wire in, but the new cabling is run up to the alternator (no not connected to alternator.. just beside it) and awaiting the other bugs to be fixed before finalizing that cabling.

Al bought new NGK's for the Cub so we decided to swap them out. Oooooh boyyyy... the carbon on them plugs... pathetic. Running pretty rich -- black as can be. Will fix that once I get her started and I have to rebuild the carb again after I find that choke lever thingy...

So, put on a portable tank, tried to start... still dragging. Checked plugs for spark.. zip, nada, nuddink, not a blip.....

I guess it is time to what:

1. Check point gap
2. Check coil? (how???)
3. Check what else??? this is where I am going to need guidance guys..

Sorry for my lack of brevity.. but it is the best I can do considering I haven't a clue what I am doing. But the cabling does look nice... all clean, wire tied and ready for loom... connections are all good..
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Postby Eugene » Sat Jun 03, 2006 11:40 pm

Rudi:

First thing I would do is put a tablespoon ot two full of oil on the top of each piston. Leave the spark plugs out.

Second thing. Remove the plug on the left side of the engine just above the oil pump. Pump the galleries full of engine oil, wait until the oil drops, fill again. Do this several times to lubricate the rod, cam and main journals. Rotate the engine 1/2 turn and repeat the process. Leave the ignition switch off - crank the engine over with the starter to see if this frees up the engine.

Not sure about your alternator. From your description, I do not believe it is wired correctly. For right now I would disconnect each wire at the alternator and cover (tape) any bare ends. The alternator wiring should have nothing to do with starting the engine.

Could be other things dragging on the engine/starter. Fan frozen up?

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Postby Dale51 » Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:55 am

pole 2 is negative and goes to a new ground. (Had to do this to get it to turn over).

Rudi,
If you had to ground the wire on the alt. to get it to roll over you don't have a ground some where.
The starter only needs the + wire from the batt. and a good ground
for the - side of the batt.
Please check all grounds starting with the ground cable to tractor
then starter to housing.
Some where you will find a bad ground.

The spark could be it needs atune up to the same bad gound causing such a draw that the coil is not getting what it needs to work.



For short the starter is taking all the juice & not letting the coil have any.
I could be wrong but this is what it sounds like to me.


As for your alt can you post a pic. of the back & of the 2 wire plug in

a 10s1 should have a slot for the 2 wire about 1" long & 5/16 wide the other older model which is not a 10s1 plugin is almost square.
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Postby Rudi » Sun Jun 04, 2006 8:19 am

Dale and Eugene:

the back of the alternator looks exactly like that, except that the twin prongs are vertically orientated and take a white molex type connector about 5/16ths wide and around an inch long. Can take a pic.

I sort of thought that these connections are redundant, but wasn't sure.

Will disconnect and see if that helps and rewire according to diagram.

Will start checking the points and the rest of the connections again, hopefully sometime tonight or tomorrow.. will keep you posted.

Thanks..
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Postby Dale51 » Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:02 am

Rudi,
Just reread your post & found that you have the wrong Diag. for the alt.
You posted the one wire alt diag. I think you need this one for a mag.
http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/View?u= ... 0&res=high

Or this one for a dist. http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/View?u= ... Sequence=0
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Postby George Willer » Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:10 am

Or you need to install the internal kit to convert it to a one wire, eliminating the necessity for an idiot light to kick start it.
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Postby Rudi » Sun Jun 04, 2006 12:55 pm

Dale & George:

Idiot light.. figures.. so how does an idiot install an idiot light? HELP :!: :idea: :idea: I know nothing about these critters.. and Al needs his Cub to put in his taters..

I take it I will need a bulb and weatherproof socket?

I don't have a mag... it is a distributor and 12 volt...

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Postby Daniel H. » Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:38 pm

Rudi, you can replace the idiot light with a diode, if you have acess to something like radio shack. The diode has a stripe around one end, the striped end goes to the alternator. This keeps the alternator from back feeding the ignition when you shut down and elimnates the need for the bulb in the circuit.

Here is a pic:
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Postby Merlin » Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:22 pm

Here is some more info. on the diode.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index ... age=search
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Postby Dale51 » Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:50 pm

Rudi
The diode is the only way to go.
Bulbs can be a problem finding the right amp. rating.
Allenlook can attest to this.
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Postby Rudi » Sun Jun 04, 2006 8:42 pm

Guys:

When I get back from taking Kristina to see the specialist for the fusing consult tomorrow in St John, I shall see if I can find me a diode.

Since Circuit City bought Radio Shack in Canada, I haven't been in one of their stores. I sure hope it is still the same company, and they stock this stuff, otherwise I am going to be in trouble. Radio Shack was always a good source for parts for my Ham Gear and other toys I attempt to fix... but usually burn up.... :!: :roll: :oops: :roll: :lol: :lol:
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Postby Eugene » Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:24 pm

Rudi:

I this were my tractor I would work in the following order.

1) Solve the cranking problem and oil prime the engine/oil pump.

2) Ignition problems. Wire only the ignition. The idea is to get the tractor running.

3) After the tractor is running, work on the charging circuit.

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Postby TOOLMAN » Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:46 pm

Rudi
I have one I can mail to you if you need it
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Postby Rudi » Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:00 am

Eugene wrote:Rudi:

I this were my tractor I would work in the following order.

1) Solve the cranking problem and oil prime the engine/oil pump.

2) Ignition problems. Wire only the ignition. The idea is to get the tractor running.

3) After the tractor is running, work on the charging circuit.

Eugene


Eugene:

I guess I should have answered that aspect of it.

The engine has not been apart. It turns freely, fan is not frozen, starter does not get hot and there doesn't seem to be an oil issue at all. The problem is rooted in there not being enough charge (on a battery charger) to overcome whatever problem there is. I may be off-base.. but it feels electrical in nature and not mechanical at all.... but I will check the oil issue tomorrow night when I get back from St. John.

It appears to be primarily grounds.. I thought I had em all fixed, but obviously I don't. I am going to take your advice and do just the ignition for the interim. The rest of the charging circuit and the lighting will take a back seat... running is paramount.

Although with the 3 inches or rain we got in the last 2 days.. plowing or harrowing is out of the question for most of this week, which will allow us time to get both tractors done.

Hopefully, with all I have learned on this project, it will probably be real easy to get Granny back to 6volts and running.. :roll: :lol: :lol: :wink: :lol:

Toolman, thanks for the offer.. but I should be able to get the diode at NAPA if not at Circuit City.... for that matter, I can pick it up at my Chrysler dealer as well... Gordie owes me a few favours...
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Postby bigdaddy » Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:46 am

HI Rudy

First of all thanks for all the stuff you do for this site. It is fab...I had some sort spagetti for wiring whien I took 'lil' bigdaddy apart. I spoke with Tom at TM and he suggested getting ahold of John Brillman of The Brillman Co. http://www.brillmancompany.com. He made my front harness, complete. All he did was ask me a few questions about the Cub and it was done. We hooked up last night and got things running immediately.
What was really cool no more spagetti.

Good Luck

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