Magneto timing-still not right

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conservationman
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1961 Ford641
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Magneto timing-still not right

Postby conservationman » Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:05 pm

I've put new points and coil into my c-60 engine off of a 50-t baler, but cannot get the timing right.

I put the mag back on after setting #1 at top dead center, with the coil cap leaning toward the engine. Rotating the engine until #1 comes back to TDC I then rotated the Mag cap away from the block trying to get the impulse coupler to "snap"

But there is not enough rotation to make it snap unless I advance the engine past TDC. It does run, starts by hand but tends to stall as I advance the throttle. I don't have a load to put on it yet.

What could be wrong or more likely what did I do wrong?

Thanks for any advice
Wally

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MiCarl
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Re: Magneto timing-still not right

Postby MiCarl » Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:17 pm

Your description of what you're doing isn't quite right. In particular you talk about placing #1 at TDC, then doing it again. If you turn the engine backward at all it'll mess you up.

1) Rotate the magneto counter-clockwise as viewed from the operator seat as far as it will go (make sure the bolts are good and loose so it doesn't bind up before it gets to the end of its travel).
2) Turn the engine clockwise as viewed from the front AT LEAST one full turn stopping on TDC of the compression stroke of cylinder 1.
3) Slowly turn the magneto clockwise as viewed from the operator seat until you hear the coupler snap. Tighten the magneto.
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Jim Becker
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Re: Magneto timing-still not right

Postby Jim Becker » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:06 pm

Sounds like your governor drive gear may not be in time. Look at the thread below, pay particular attention to the second post.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=108574

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Glen
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Re: Magneto timing-still not right

Postby Glen » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:19 pm

Hi,
Below is a page from the Baler engine owner's manual, telling how to time the magneto to the engine.
Maybe you saw it already.

http://farmallcub.com/rudi_cub/www.clea ... e%2031.jpg

If you can't get the timing to adjust correctly, it could have this problem below.
Part of this info is the same as Jim posted above.

The 1st pic below shows how the magneto drive should be turned when the engine is at number 1 cylinder TDC.
If the drive is turned to another position, you probably won't be able to time the magneto correctly.
The drive is made on the governor drive gear. Sometimes people have the engine apart, or the governor off, and don't align the gear teeth right.

The gears have alignment marks. They should be aligned when the engine is at number 1 cylinder TDC.
Below are pics from TM Tractor.
The 2nd pic shows the timing mark on the governor gear, it is at the left in the pic.
The 3rd pic shows timing mark on the idler gear, it drives the governor gear. The mark is at the right in the pic.
The mark on the idler gear is on the side of the gear facing the rear, you see it looking in from the rear, like the 1st pic is, but after removing the governor.

If you have to remove the governor to change the gear teeth position, if the oil seal at the drive leaks, you could replace it while you have the governor off.
TM Tractor at the bottom of the page has a new governor gear oil seal. I hope this helps. :)
Attachments
Cub gov gear.jpg
Cub gov gear 2.jpg
Cub idler gear.jpg

conservationman
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Tractors Owned: 1947 case VAC
1961 Ford641
1948 c-60 from 50-T Baler
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: S.E.WISCONSIN

Re: Magneto timing-still not right

Postby conservationman » Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:29 am

Thanks for the replys. I'll try again when it stops raining ( in a few days)

If I put a timing light on it what should the timing be at idle? and at full rpm

( I presume that even with a magneto I could hook up a battery and get the timing light to work)

Wally

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Re: Magneto timing-still not right

Postby Jim Becker » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:02 am

While the impulse coupling is engaging (cranking speed) the advance should be 0. Once the impulse kicks out (normal slow idle or above) the advance should be a constant 13.

I've never tried hooking a timing light to a magneto, but presume it would work.

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Re: Magneto timing-still not right

Postby Gary Dotson » Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:12 am

Yes, the timing light will work fine on a magneto. As Jim mentioned, your timing will be at full advance any time the engine is running. Since most Magneto Cubs have a single timing mark, which is top dead center, I like to make a temporary mark about 11/16" below the factory mark and adjust to that.

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Re: Magneto timing-still not right

Postby Mht » Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:53 am

An easy way to get the timing right is to use a timing light with adjustable advance. Set it on 13 degrees and the existing mark works just right. A 12 volt battery to power the light and it will work just fine on a 6 volt cub with magneto or distributor ignition. I use a 30 year old craftsman timing light that I picked up at a yard sale for 2 bucks

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Re: Magneto timing-still not right

Postby tnestell » Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:53 am

Gary Dotson wrote:Yes, the timing light will work fine on a magneto. As Jim mentioned, your timing will be at full advance any time the engine is running. Since most Magneto Cubs have a single timing mark, which is top dead center, I like to make a temporary mark about 11/16" below the factory mark and adjust to that.

I have done the same as Gary except I notched my pulley for 16 degrees before tdc.
Last edited by tnestell on Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Magneto timing-still not right

Postby Gary Dotson » Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:37 am

I don't know why I said temporary, a permanent mark is certainly an option.
An advance timing light is a great option, too, if you have one. I've had a couple of them, over the years but both of them died. I've been shopping for a new one but it's hard to justify, no more than I use a timing light, these days.

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John *.?-!.* cub owner
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Re: Magneto timing-still not right

Postby John *.?-!.* cub owner » Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:50 pm

If your drive lugs are not exactly in that position with #1 at TDC, some has had the front cover off or the governor off and put it back out of time. They must be aligned according to the dots on the gears. There is an idler gear that has to be timed to the crankshaft, plus the gear on the governor that has to be timed to the idler. If it is off you can pull the governor and turn it a tooth or two to correct it without pulling the front cover, or you can get a distributor and correct by pulling the driveshaft in the adapter and turning it some before reinstalling.
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conservationman
Posts: 16
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Tractors Owned: 1947 case VAC
1961 Ford641
1948 c-60 from 50-T Baler
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Location: S.E.WISCONSIN

Re: Magneto timing-still not right

Postby conservationman » Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:58 pm

Mag drive gear resized.jpg
It stopped raining so I got the engine into the garage so I can work on it this winter.

I took the Mag off, looked at the magneto drive gear, It looks off to me.

Looking for posts that show how to reset
thanks
Wally

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Re: Magneto timing-still not right

Postby Glen » Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:03 pm

Hi,
You need to change the mesh of the governor gear, with the idler gear. It is not hard to do.
You need to remove the governor to do that.

Below is a page from the Baler parts manual, showing the governor and connections.

http://farmallcub.com/rudi_cub/www.clea ... e%2012.jpg

First you need to remove the throttle rod from the top of the governor, then the pin number 3 in the parts pic, and the 2 bolts that hold number 5 onto the engine.
Then the shaft assembly will pull out of the governor.
Then remove the 2 bolts that hold the governor on the engine.

The insides of the governor can pull out of the case, keep them in the case if you can so the bearing doesn't fall off.
You might want to take the governor to a clean bench and open it and see if everything looks good, and clean it if needed.
The 2 pins that hold the weights on can get worn, and the holes can get worn, work them around and see that there is no play from wear.
Play there can make the governor work bad.

Look at the surface the oil seal runs on, if it is rusty, dirty, or rough, clean it, and sand it with some fine sandpaper, and smooth it.

It looks like in your pic the oil seal is not leaking, unless you cleaned it.
I don't know if you want to replace the seal or not.

Align the timing marks when putting the governor in again.
Remember the gear turns some as you put it in again.
The magneto drive slot should be turned like in the pic I posted.

Look closely when putting the gear in and see that the oil seal lip doesn't turn backwards, it won't seal if it does.
Check for wear of the shaft back and forth where the key number 6 is in the parts pic, hold the one piece, and turn the other piece. The keyway can wear there, and that makes the governor work slower than it should.
People on here have said to use small shims, or a glue product, to tighten up the connection, if needed. :)

conservationman
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:41 pm
Zip Code: 53126
Tractors Owned: 1947 case VAC
1961 Ford641
1948 c-60 from 50-T Baler
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: S.E.WISCONSIN

Re: Magneto timing-still not right

Postby conservationman » Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:06 pm

Thanks Glen
That is the informationm that I was looking for! I'll try it out this week.
Wally

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John *.?-!.* cub owner
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Re: Magneto timing-still not right

Postby John *.?-!.* cub owner » Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:58 pm

I bought a 49 several years ago that the owner sent to a less than Ideal shop to be rebuilt and painted. They painted over the fuel spills on the tank, dirt and grease on the tractor, put rings in when it needed bored with pistons, and sold the owner a new carb and distributor claiming the old ones were bad when they had gotten the mag drive out of sync, and either could not figure out what was wrong, or didn't want to bother fixing up their foul up.
If you are not part of the solution,
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